Fireside Chat w/Pam Lindemoen, CISO Advisor @ Cisco

[00:00:00] Hi, Ryan. How are you? Hi, Pam. Hi. Howdy. Octavia, I just had to jump up here and say [00:00:21] congrats as I've been following you on LinkedIn. Thank you. I appreciate it. It's a lot of [00:00:27] work. But well deserved, I'm sure. Okay, I'm gonna hop down to the audience and can't wait to hear [00:00:33] your story, Pam. Thank you. My pleasure. I'm sure I'll ask some questions of you when it's my time. [00:00:41] I hope so. I can't get myself back to the audience. If you can put... I'll take care of it. Yeah. [00:00:50] Octavia, can you hear me okay? I can. You're coming in great. Okay. I'm trying to get on my... [00:00:57] It's so weird. It won't let me get on my headset. So typically, I have to... So if you have AirPods... [00:01:09] Or like the Galaxy? No, it's like hardwired. Oh. Yeah, I've always had problems with those. So I just [00:01:17] use my Bluetooth. I would love to. I left it home. Understood. Hey, Lisa. Hey, Katie. [00:01:28] Hey, good evening. Hi, Pam. Nice to meet you. Nice to meet you. Hi, everyone. I see we got all the [00:01:35] ladies in the house tonight. I see all the ladies are on time. What else is new? [00:01:45] I just want everyone to know that I am in a Capitol Grill in Orlando at the HIMSS conference. [00:01:52] And I literally asked them, I'm like, where can I go where it's quiet? And the hostess [00:01:57] fan let me like invade their privacy. That's awesome. I'm in a closet. So... [00:02:05] Well, okay. I don't know if that's that awesome. That's dedication, Pam. We appreciate that. [00:02:11] You know, the fireside chat. You know what? Anything for Tomas and you guys, like, [00:02:17] it's interesting. You have to be in multiple places at once. [00:02:21] You know, you really do. I mean, it's funny. You bring up a point right out of the gate of like, [00:02:29] how it is we're balancing now being back on the road and doing all of our responsibilities and [00:02:35] representing our companies in the field slash, you know, trying to do what we're, you know, [00:02:41] collaboration. That's right. I guess you go sit in the hostess closet. [00:02:46] You do what you have to do. That's right. I love it. [00:02:53] I'll talk about that a little bit tonight. [00:02:56] Hello. Hello. Hello. How's everybody doing this evening? [00:03:00] Hi, friend. Sorry that I'm running up on the, on the time period. And I'm, [00:03:06] if I'm on time, I'm late. So sorry that I'm late. [00:03:09] Yeah, you're late. We already talked about you, Tomas. No problem. [00:03:12] Hey, look, I, when I tell you, I literally just ran in the door. I literally just ran in the door. [00:03:20] So I'm, I'm, I'm happy that you all here and I'm happy that you all talked about me and I'll be able [00:03:25] to hopefully listen to the replay. But anyways, it's great to have you here, Pam. And it's great to, [00:03:31] it's great to be here with, with the esteemed colleagues of moderators with Octavia, Lisa, [00:03:37] Beth, Katie, and Russell. So how's everybody doing this evening? [00:03:40] You know, you guys already did all of that, I guess. [00:03:44] No, we're doing it again. [00:03:48] I'm not sitting in a, in a hostess closet. I'm sitting in the, in my own home. I mean, [00:03:54] I'm not making the big sacrifice that Pam's doing for us tonight. [00:03:57] So Tomas. [00:03:59] Yes. [00:04:00] It's not a sacrifice. I'm at the HIMSS conference, which is a healthcare conference. And [00:04:06] I was meeting, meeting with a client and it's at the Capitol grill in Orlando. So don't make fun of me. [00:04:15] I had to find a quiet place so that I could be in two places at once because you are important to me. [00:04:24] Well, I think, I think we have a theme. Like we had one person at the dealership, right? Or like at a, [00:04:30] at a, getting his oil change. It was taken up the, [00:04:33] the office and now we have Pam in the closet. [00:04:39] Well, look, I just wrapped, I just wrapped my other call. So I am, [00:04:43] I am all ears and ready to go. So why don't we, [00:04:46] why don't we get the show on the road? If you guys are, are, [00:04:49] are willing to entertain me to do a quick opening, unless you already did it, [00:04:53] Octavia or Lisa Beth, did you already do the opening? [00:04:56] We did not. [00:04:57] All right. So why don't we, why don't we jump right in? So Pam, thank you for joining us this [00:05:02] evening. For those of you in the audience, if it's your first time here, we do this every Wednesday, [00:05:07] 8 p.m. Eastern time. We're going to ask Pam questions for about 30 to 40 minutes or so. [00:05:12] Depends on, it depends on, it really depends on, on how the questions sort of flow. There's no, [00:05:18] for those who are not used to being in the hot seat, there's no pre-camp questions that we ship over [00:05:24] beforehand. So it really goes on the flow of the conversation and where the conversation goes [00:05:29] this evening. Pam's in at HISM. I think she said HISM, right? Or was it HIMSS? HISM? [00:05:34] One of the conferences, the healthcare conference. Is it HISM? [00:05:38] It's HIMSS. [00:05:38] Okay. So, so we do appreciate her taking time out of her busy schedule to sort of [00:05:45] chat with us and tell us about her story and journey. So look, as we get into the, this evening, [00:05:53] just want to go over a few quick sort of guardrails for, for this evening, right? So one, [00:05:58] let's have fun. Let's have a really good evening today. It's a middle of the week. We've had a [00:06:03] stressful week or we, we still working through our stressful week or some of us are still working [00:06:07] through specific items. This is the fun time. This is a time that we're going to have to really have [00:06:11] a great conversation, really sort of loosen up if you will, and, and relax a bit, right? Let your hair [00:06:16] down, right? Russell, we'll let our hair down a little bit. The, the, there's a little greenhouse [00:06:23] on the top left of your screen, right next to where it says fireside chat. If you're not a member [00:06:27] of our fireside chat, please click that little greenhouse, that monopoly house, and you can join [00:06:31] our, our sort of group here. The other thing that we usually like to say is if you are a vendor in the [00:06:36] audience and you do pop up on stage and you want to ask a question, which we encourage, we encourage [00:06:42] the great questions and the great dialogue. And I know Pam is part of Cisco and she is a [00:06:46] tech to get vendor. We're not here to talk about Cisco to that extent. Hopefully the Cisco people [00:06:52] in the audience don't get mad at me about that, but we're really here to learn about Pam and her [00:06:56] journey, right? How does she get to where she is today? That sort of background that she has and [00:07:00] that, that wealth of knowledge that she's acquired throughout the years, which I think, and most of us [00:07:05] think is more valuable than what she's actually doing in her current role to a certain extent. And then we'll get [00:07:11] into her current role and what she's doing there, which is, which is equally valuable. But, but if [00:07:16] you are a vendor in the audience and you do pop up on stage, we ask that you please, you know, don't [00:07:20] sell us on your product, your solution or anything great that you have going on, you know, in your [00:07:24] sort of work life. This is not the right form for that. This is really to get to know Pam and a little [00:07:29] bit different level to, to understand more about her. And then the last comment I'll say for some of us, [00:07:36] our comments and opinions are our own and do not represent our current or prior employer. [00:07:41] So we asked that you please respect that. So without further ado, I'm just going to go around the room. [00:07:46] Pam will leave you for last. I will introduce myself and then Pam will leave you to introduce yourself [00:07:51] last. So I'm Tomas Maldonado. I'm the CISO at the National Football League. Octavia, over to you. [00:07:57] Thanks Tomas. I'm Octavia Howell. I'm the CISO at Equifax Canada. Over to you, Lisa. [00:08:03] Lisa Beth Lentini-Walker. I am a CEO of a compliance ethics and corporate governance consulting firm [00:08:18] called Lumen Worldwide Endeavors. I teach law school in the United States and Europe and I wrote a book [00:08:25] not too long ago. With that, I'm going to turn it over to Katie. [00:08:30] Katie Hanahan- Hi, good afternoon. Good evening. Good morning. If you're in Australia, [00:08:34] I'm Katie Hanahan. Sorry, I just came from another room where half the people are from Australia. [00:08:39] I don't think we have a lot of Aussies in the room tonight, but welcome, Pam. So happy to have you [00:08:44] here tonight. So I am the vice president and cybersecurity strategist for a small boutique [00:08:52] SI out of Chicago. Also a VC so and run our VC so program over to you, Russell. [00:09:02] Thank you, Katie. So great to be here. Hey, Russell Eubanks. Great to be here. [00:09:06] I've been running my own security consulting company the last two years called Security Ever After. [00:09:10] Before that, I was privileged to be the CISO and the CIO at the Federal Reserve Bank of Atlanta. [00:09:16] Just love having experiences like this. And Pam, really looking forward to learning from you, [00:09:20] being inspired from you, and being a better leader because of you. But Tomas, back over to you. [00:09:26] Tomas Monsonis Thank you, everybody. Thank you, Mads. I do see a lot of new folks in the audience. [00:09:30] You got that little celebration or party hat. So welcome, welcome to Clubhouse and welcome to our [00:09:35] weekly fireside chat. So look, we've been, you know, we've mentioned Pam several times. [00:09:40] Pam, why don't you give us a moment and just take a moment and introduce yourself to the audience as you can. [00:09:47] Thank you, Tomas. First and foremost, I'm a friend of Tomas's. I can tell you we met [00:09:55] recently, last fall, and I was incredibly inspired by his leadership and just his candor about [00:10:05] the needs of security. And that goes to my heart, straight to my heart. So I am, first and foremost, [00:10:14] I'm a mother of a four-year-old and a wife of a man who supports me in a way in which if any of you [00:10:22] out there understand the power of a partnership, I have the best partner in the world. He allows me [00:10:30] to do what I do every day, which is inspire security professionals to come to the table and to solve [00:10:39] this incredibly hard problem that we're all up against every day. And Tomas, I loved your entrance [00:10:46] when you said that we're all halfway through the week and it's probably tough, right? And what I can [00:10:51] say about that is I know who I am. I'm a 50-year-old woman with a four-year-old child and it hasn't [00:11:01] always been the case where I've known myself, but I know who I am. And I can tell you that I've been [00:11:09] at Cisco for seven months, but I have a longstanding career in information technology. And what that means [00:11:17] is I've sat in the seat of enterprise service provider for mainframe services, server support, [00:11:26] desktop support. And I know all about MTTR, mean time to response, mean time to repair. I know about [00:11:35] CRIT SITs being on call 24-7 for 15 years. I've moved into the software development side of the house [00:11:44] where I literally managed a team of my peers and we built web services for a bank. And when I say we [00:11:55] built it, we introduced it. We were extraordinary engineering groups that brought in SOA, software as a [00:12:07] service and built it from the ground up. So during that time I was exposed to security professionals [00:12:16] and infrastructure people again. And then I went into infrastructure services, helping manage large [00:12:23] infrastructure contracts. If you think about the big partners of Fortune 50 companies like IBM and Dell [00:12:34] and others, Verizon, Xerox, all of those, building those contract governance models and making sure that we [00:12:44] were receiving the deliverables that we were paying for. That's the type of work that I built as well as, [00:12:53] you know, software development services overseas and our, in our India and our Philippine counterparts [00:13:02] and building that out, making contracts work, making software development, something that everybody could afford. [00:13:11] So with that experience, I ventured over into the security side of the house and I will tell you, [00:13:20] I did it kicking and screaming. I had no certifications and no formal training in security. I understood [00:13:32] what security meant. I understood as an individual what privacy meant to me [00:13:37] and I was coerced to move into security and I was very well set up with a very deep technical team [00:13:48] that balanced me out. They afforded my leadership to build out the organization. They [00:13:56] believed in me and I learned from them as much as they learned from me. And so it was a very symbiotic [00:14:03] relationship when I started out in the security space. I talked to a lot of young individuals about [00:14:10] security who are afraid to move into the security space. I could tell you cyber can be spooky. It can be [00:14:20] theatrics. But I can tell you it's logic. It's problem solving. It is [00:14:29] a deep connection with how technology can be [00:14:34] detrimental to your life and understanding what the impact is, what the risk is to individuals and [00:14:41] organizations. And so I just brought my leadership skills to bear and was very successful in building [00:14:50] a team and moving around in the various different domains within security. I call myself fortunate [00:14:58] because I've always been surrounded by very talented and smart individuals and I am [00:15:07] very grateful to have those people in my life that have helped me stand up in security. So that's my story. [00:15:17] I can tell you that the people that I work with today are very influential in the space and I moved out of [00:15:28] a practitioner role into I guess the vendor role as you would call it to bring my experience into an organization [00:15:37] that could really help solve the problem from a practitioner perspective and really help elevate the [00:15:44] CISO message inside of Cisco. So that's really what I'm doing is I talk to CISOs all over the globe and [00:15:53] I mentor young individuals, mostly female. I'm not gonna shortcut what my mission in life is. It is to [00:16:06] help women get out of their own way and to really be the best that they can be, to really set aside fear, [00:16:13] to set aside the realities of the world and make sure they understand what they have to sacrifice if [00:16:19] they want a career. And I will tell you there are sacrifices. And I just, I'm so grateful to be here [00:16:30] talking to you today and answer your questions. So Tomas, I'm ready. [00:16:36] Sounds good, Pam. Thank you for that. Thank you for that sort of, I'll call it an introduction on you. [00:16:42] You know, I, when we met, I had a pleasure sort of meeting, meeting you and spending time chatting with [00:16:50] you and, you know, working through different sort of scenarios that we were working through from a [00:16:55] business standpoint down in California. So great, great times. Pam, I always like asking this question [00:17:02] and you touched upon, I'll say you touched upon a good portion of the current Pam, but let's go a little [00:17:10] bit back and let's talk about that origin story. You know, I always say that there's something about [00:17:15] us security people or just technology people in general, right, that makes us somewhat superheroes. [00:17:20] Tell us a little bit more about your origin story. Like, you know, go back before you, before you had [00:17:26] kids and, and, you know, when you were younger, Pam, sort of finding your way, navigating your early stages [00:17:32] of life or high school or college or, you know, some portion of your, of your early stages of your [00:17:39] life that sort of help guide you and motivate you in the direction that you are in today. Tell us a little [00:17:45] bit more about that. I love that question, Tomas. I recently listened to the book by Will Smith and [00:17:56] it resonated with me so much about the fact that he was innately in tune and very self-aware. And at a [00:18:05] very young age, I paid attention and I listened and I can tell you that my curiosity has served me well [00:18:15] within my career. And not only curiosity, curiosity, but it was more curiosity blended with a work ethic [00:18:24] that, you know, when you're young, you, you have an expectation of things and you, you do not have world [00:18:32] experiences that, that bring you an intuition and an experience that help you solve problems. And so I [00:18:41] can tell you that my curiosity and my eagerness to learn and listen to everyone around me, um, was very [00:18:51] influential for my career. If, if you think about what leadership is all about, it's really not about [00:18:58] leading. It's a lot about listening to what people want and what they need and really trying to find [00:19:06] a win-win situation for everyone involved. And so for me, just being around a lot of smart people and [00:19:13] teaching me lessons very early, I can tell you, um, I learned to write an email very early on by my first [00:19:21] leader that basically red line. And I thought it was a little bit, um, of a control freak, if you want to know the [00:19:32] truth, but what he taught me was to take emotion out of my decision making process and to really just rely on [00:19:42] facts and artifacts of the situation. And so it served me well in my career in terms of listening to those [00:19:51] life lessons early on. I can also tell you that, um, listening can be difficult. Um, I recently talked to, um, [00:20:01] some CISOs in a round table and we were talking about perspective. I've literally held the position [00:20:08] in infrastructure and application development and in security and where you sit is where you stand. [00:20:14] And a lot of security professionals really need to take a hard look at what the outcomes for [00:20:22] application developers, the feature functions and what infrastructure keeping up time, um, things [00:20:28] running, you know, 99.9999, I don't know how many nines, I think nine nines. [00:20:34] And what all those perspectives bring to bear and work together to solve the problems together. So [00:20:41] I think listening and the work ethic and just paying attention, being self-aware and really being [00:20:49] patient to what was going to come next. I think a lot of what we think should happen sometimes is not [00:20:57] what does happen and that's okay. Um, and failing, um, Tomas, I don't know if you've had experience in [00:21:05] your career, but my failures have taught me great lessons that I can tell you have really made an [00:21:14] impression on me and have served me well in terms of situations and given me that self-awareness and [00:21:20] situational awareness to handle things that quite frankly, just would not have, um, have mattered any [00:21:28] other way. Um, just, just experience. [00:21:31] I, I, I call those failures opportunities to learn a different direction to take. Um, so great, [00:21:41] good stuff. Octavia, I'll pass it over to you. [00:21:43] Thanks, Tomas. Pam, you had a great story and, you know, you have a great [00:21:50] background as well. One of the things that I noticed in kind of reviewing your profile is [00:21:54] you've done something that a lot of people, um, have tried to do and you've been successful in it. [00:22:02] And I want you to talk a little bit, like I noticed that you did not start your career in cyber security [00:22:08] or in network security or in technology or you start on the sales side or like at my mother used to work [00:22:14] at nation bank and when it was NCMB, the nation's bank, the bank of America. So I noticed that's [00:22:20] where you started and I just want to, I want you to speak to if you could your pivot or your shift, [00:22:26] right? Cause I don't believe in the pivot into security, but can you tell us a little bit about [00:22:31] your journey and your, um, your shift into security and what you brought with that? [00:22:37] I look, I can try Octavia. Um, you know, I'll, I'll tell you, I have a communications degree [00:22:47] and my first job out of college was purely to pay the bills. Um, and I've had women tell me, [00:22:58] men tell me that I would never make more than $15 an hour. I've had people tell me that I smile too much. [00:23:05] I've had people tell me that I'm not this or not that, but my first role out of college, [00:23:13] out of the communications degree. And I worked my way through college actually. Um, I started at North [00:23:18] Georgia college. It was a private college. It was very expensive. Life got in the way. Um, I had planned [00:23:24] to go to Georgia tech. Um, but again, you do what you have to do to make ends meet. And so I went to [00:23:31] Kennesaw state university and I was not a university at the time. I held four jobs. I, [00:23:37] anything that paid a stipend, I would take advantage of, I had a 30 hour a week position. [00:23:43] I think I was a waitress, a hostess, you name it. I, I worked and I, I worked towards the president's [00:23:52] list every, every quarter. We were quarters back then. It's been a long time. So I managed to move into [00:24:00] a company that I was actually, if you, if you want to just call it what it is, it was a receptionist, [00:24:06] a sales assistant. I was the first person that you saw when you walked in the door and I had a [00:24:11] pleasant smile and a pleasant demeanor on my face. And people liked me. They talked to me and they taught [00:24:20] me and I listened and I worked my way into a position working for the nation's bank account, [00:24:27] the second largest account within three months of, of attaining that job. What that meant for me is [00:24:34] it gave me an opportunity to learn. And so I used my work ethic and I put my fingers to the grindstone. [00:24:48] I had an intern, I think I was 23 years old and I had an 18 year old intern and I would get frustrated [00:24:54] with the people around me because they weren't working as hard as I was. And I held everyone to a high, [00:25:03] high standard. And I had an intern that once told me she was 18 years old and she literally said to me, [00:25:10] Hey, Pam, don't get so frustrated. That leaves that much room for you and I to be that more successful in [00:25:19] life. And I, she took me aback, you know, and she told me exactly what I needed to hear at the time. [00:25:26] And we were, she was right. You know, you work hard and you have high expectations, but you do what you [00:25:34] have to do. So I really just worked my way into it, Octavia. I had no experience and I will tell you that [00:25:42] a man gave me my opportunity. I've had a lot of male allies in my career and I've told a lot of young [00:25:52] women, look at the opportunity in front of you. And if there's a crack in the door, kick it open, [00:26:00] do what you have to do to make your, make your way, work hard, prove yourself, [00:26:06] and you will be rewarded. And I am living proof of that. [00:26:13] I love that. I love that, Pam. And it also speaks to like that generational tie, right? [00:26:18] It's like someone who's younger than you can also give you advice and mentor you in the moment, right? [00:26:25] For specific things that you need. So I love that. And it just goes back to, you know, your, [00:26:33] your, your tenacity. Lisa Beth, I'll turn it over to you. [00:26:38] Thanks so much. Pam, it's great to have you here tonight. And I love all the topics that you're [00:26:44] talking about. They're near and dear to my heart. So my question for you is, how have you changed over [00:26:54] time with the different relationships? You said that you've got, you know, the most supportive partner in [00:27:00] the world and I agree, having a supportive partner is phenomenal. I am, I am lucky in that way as well. [00:27:07] How did those relationships help you in your career? What did you learn from being, you know, [00:27:15] a mother, a spouse, a daughter? How have, have those moments shaped you as you've moved through your career? [00:27:23] Wow. I'm, I'm getting some hard hitting ones. Um, I can tell you, Lisa, um, I haven't always been [00:27:36] good to my female community and I can say without, [00:27:42] without any pretense that I had a phenomenal group of women around me that I did not foster. [00:27:56] I did not invest. I was, um, a business, business woman first and foremost. And sometimes that meant [00:28:09] that my relationships with women fell by the wayside. And I, I am regretful for that. I had a lot of help [00:28:21] in the IT community to foster my skill sets, if you will. I learned on the job. I was a very logical [00:28:35] thinker. So I think that enabled me to move very quickly inside of the IT world. Um, I can also tell [00:28:47] you that I have a, a way about compartmentalizing things that voted well for me in leadership in terms [00:28:57] of just looking at the facts and making very swift decisions that were what my husband says 99% of the [00:29:06] time I'm right. And it just drives him crazy. I hope he's not listening. [00:29:09] But I can tell you that when I, when I realized, um, that relationships matter and that I had not [00:29:25] given back to my female community, I made a shift, a very deliberate shift. I had a very wise executive [00:29:35] coach that gave me an outline and helped me build a mission and an action plan to give back to my [00:29:45] female community. And I can tell you if you're a young female in this business and you need a mentor, [00:29:52] I can either help you find one or point you in the right direction or, or, or assist. The, [00:29:59] the one thing about that is that my current husband was very kind in holding up a mirror in front of me [00:30:08] and helping me see where I needed to be a more present family member, whether it was a sister, [00:30:20] a mother, a mother, a mother, a daughter, a cousin, an aunt. And that's really hard to say out loud. [00:30:31] But it's, it's true for us, Lisa, we have to make decisions. And so I made a decision to adopt [00:30:40] a baby boy with my husband and I had to decide to sit still for about three years. And so when you go [00:30:53] through that process and you have people around you who support you, it gives you the strength that you [00:31:01] need to make decisions, to say no to the things that you need to say no to. Um, and I had a really [00:31:08] brilliant mentor that explained to me that I could do anything I wanted, just not all at the same time. [00:31:17] And so as a mother, I make some sacrifices. I have to decide when I'm going to take my kid to school, [00:31:26] when I'm going to pick my kid up, when I'm going to be a part of the, um, [00:31:31] um, the fun stuff in our life and when I'm going to have to work. And those are things that we negotiate, [00:31:40] um, continuously. And I would, I would tell any woman that's considering going into the IT space, [00:31:48] you will have to make sacrifices and you have to decide for yourself and you have to have those [00:31:53] people around you. Um, I call them personal board of directors to help guide you and what's right for [00:32:00] your situation. And not everyone's situation is the same. So, um, it's just a lot about listening to [00:32:09] others, having, you know, talent around you that can tell you the truth and that you will listen to [00:32:15] so that you can make those decisions when they come up and, and their decisions for people [00:32:22] in your life that you love. And I think that's what it's all about. [00:32:28] Thank you for sharing that. I, I felt that on many different levels. So, um, I'm so glad that you, [00:32:35] you were able to, to share it with us and, um, be part of this conversation tonight. Katie, [00:32:42] I think it's up to you next. Yes, it is. Uh, it is me next. Hi, Pam. Um, wow. You shared a lot. And, [00:32:50] uh, I just want to, I want to thank you for your, uh, transparency and vulnerability, which I think is [00:32:56] a, is a big deal for anyone in any community, let alone a female in our community. Right. Um, [00:33:04] um, I'm really, you know, curious though, um, because I love where you're going with like, [00:33:13] you're here now for the female community, having just said that you weren't always good to the [00:33:19] female community. And I honestly, I wonder if that's even true. A lot of us beat up on ourselves [00:33:23] for not being there for other women when maybe we were, I don't, I don't know. I just, I'm trying to, [00:33:28] you know, but when you look at things like that, I just, I'm really inspired by your transparency. [00:33:32] And I'm really inspired by the fact that you're, um, in a position where you said you looked in the [00:33:37] mirror and you said you had to see what you had to see in the mirror to make these really, you know, [00:33:43] large changes in your career and be an example then for other, uh, women in the industry. Would you [00:33:50] mind going into a little bit, like, what did you see? What were the changes more tactically that you [00:33:55] felt you wanted to make at that moment? Um, when you decided to sit still, when you decided to look in [00:34:00] the mirror and see and become more present, I just thought that was very inspiring. [00:34:07] You know, um, I, I think, I think, you know, we all have obstacles in our life. I've, I've been through [00:34:17] a very traumatic, um, breach. Um, I've been through, um, career changes. I've moved to cities where I've [00:34:27] never known. I did not know anyone in the city at the time. Um, I can tell you that I thrive on adventure. [00:34:39] I have written down what my most valuable things in life are, um, my family, uh, my friends, [00:34:47] uh, my spirituality, my, um, freedom. And when I say freedom, I, it's pretty broad. Um, but it, it, [00:35:01] it, it took a lot of work. I think I mentioned my age. I'm, I'm 50 years old. So I've had some time [00:35:08] to reflect on relationships that ended poorly, on relationships that were valuable at the time, [00:35:17] but, uh, no longer served me or the person, the other person that was in them. And I, and I think [00:35:24] that that's a lot about, I think it's why I am very successful in security is because I'm not always [00:35:34] focused on one specific area is I try to raise myself up and look at the broader picture. And I've [00:35:43] had people around me that have told me about my intuition and what I can see in the future. And [00:35:51] that I think both voted well for me in my career is being able to kind of lift up and see [00:35:58] what exactly I needed to work on, whether it was, you know, my department, whether it was the resources [00:36:07] that worked for me, um, how we needed to work together. If I was being a poor manager at the time, [00:36:14] a poor leader, and I've made a lot of mistakes, a ton of mistakes in leadership, [00:36:20] and I've made a lot of mistakes in that respect. But just being able to recognize that and to take it [00:36:25] with me to, um, future situations and to help advise in that respect, but really just looking at [00:36:34] what people tell me and listening to them and opening, opening myself up to constructive criticism, [00:36:40] and being able to take that power and use it for self-improvement. I am my own worst critique. I think [00:36:58] that I am very hard on myself. I think I, the mistakes I've made in my life, I will carry into my grave. [00:37:05] Um, I think that when I look at my husband and my son, I think about all the things that I could be [00:37:12] doing for them. I think about the team that I'm on today. I think about all the things that I'm [00:37:17] disappointing them. Um, I rarely think about how my experience is helping others and, and I feel it in [00:37:27] moments. Um, I'm not that detrimental to myself, but I just listen to both sides and, you know, the good, [00:37:35] the bad, the ugly, and I carry that in and I do have situational awareness and I, I'm not perfect. I, [00:37:45] I have been, um, around plenty of people that have told me I'm not perfect. I think we all have, but [00:37:54] it's, um, I think if you want to be a constant learner, you have to really consider what other [00:38:00] people are telling you and you really have to listen to perspectives. And I, and I think that's [00:38:06] what I bring to bear into the IT community is just that perspective, the application development side, [00:38:11] the infrastructure side, and the security side and how we all work together, how we all solve [00:38:18] this complicated problem together. I mean, we're all being held accountable for it. So why not solve it, [00:38:24] you know, in unity? So I don't know if I answered your question, but I just, I just think it's lessons [00:38:32] learned, um, through life. No, you absolutely did. And I, I think that the, uh, thing that I really [00:38:39] appreciate is just your, your vulnerability there too. And just saying, Hey, you know, this is where we, [00:38:44] um, all kind of meet, meet together. Um, and, uh, uh, you know, I always say failing forward or whatever [00:38:52] anyone wants to call it, but kind of into the, and that's why I love this room is that we kind of [00:38:56] create this community where we can talk to each other. So yeah, thank you, Pam. I really appreciated [00:39:00] that answer. Uh, Russell, over to you. Thanks Katie and Pam. Wow. Um, so, so amazing. The, the 36 minutes [00:39:10] or so you share with us, it just been, uh, profound. And hems, I used to do a lot of healthcare things and [00:39:15] know exactly what you're doing and the massive environment you're at. So thanks for stepping away from [00:39:20] that. And I'm not that far geographically from Kennesaw state. And you working for jobs and just all [00:39:26] these things. It's like, wow, how have I not known you before tonight while being grateful, uh, to get to [00:39:32] know you tonight. Uh, my question is, I think about 40 questions, but my question I want to ask, you've [00:39:37] talked about being an advocate for women in cyber. You talked about some things and certainly as, uh, my wife, [00:39:46] my daughter, I'm thinking of, you know, advocate for them, what can I, or what can we as males, [00:39:51] whether we're listening live or on the recording, what can we do that's maybe something we don't know [00:39:55] to do that we can be a better and more, um, uh, intentional advocate for, for women in cyber. Do you [00:40:03] have a, something that, uh, it'll take away from me, a little nugget for me, uh, in that area? [00:40:07] You know, it, I get asked that question a lot. Um, Russell, and I thank you for that. Um, we'll have [00:40:17] to meet up when I'm back in Atlanta. The, the thing I would say, and I learned this from my husband. [00:40:24] He, he told me about, he was a karate teacher for years. He was director of a karate school school and [00:40:35] he was working himself through college as well after the Navy. Um, but he, he told me that there [00:40:41] was this, these two children in the class and they were very respectful. They were very, um, [00:40:50] they were just good kids. Right. And he went up to the parents one night and he said, [00:40:55] why are they such good? Like, what is your secret? Like, what, what do you do? And the mom thought [00:41:03] about it for a minute and what she said to him, I will never forget. She said, just be there, [00:41:10] just care. And I can tell you that I've been through workshops. I've been through [00:41:16] culture exercises. I've been through everything. And the one sentiment that I take away from all of [00:41:21] those is that you have to care. Like we're all trying to solve the same type of problems. Right. And [00:41:30] your daughters just want you to be there for them, whether or not they're saying it, they just want [00:41:34] you to be their father and to catch them when they fall and to tell them that everything's going to [00:41:39] be okay. Right. Um, and, and I think it's hard for men right now where, and I think it's, you know, [00:41:47] the conversation is tough and I, I try to tell everyone I meet, I have had, I've had good and I've had bad [00:41:58] experiences. We've all been through certain, you know, circumstances in our lives and [00:42:07] we all just want to do a great job. Right. And we just all want that support. So I would just say [00:42:12] care and support them, be there when they need a shoulder to cry on, be there when they need their [00:42:18] dad to listen, you know, um, it's certainly, it, it, it spoke volumes to me when I heard that story. [00:42:30] And open up your network, you know, like that doesn't hurt either. [00:42:36] Three, three great steps, uh, Pam. Thank you. Uh, sincerely, uh, appreciate it. And as I'm sure [00:42:45] others, um, in this room do as well. So I thank you for that. Uh, Tomas, where do we go next? Is [00:42:51] time for a, uh, reset or maybe go to David or I'll throw it over to you, Tomas? [00:42:55] Tomas. Yeah, no, look, it's, it's, uh, no, no, you're fine, Russell. Don't worry about it. It's, uh, [00:43:00] it's been a great conversation and Pam, you know, we, we've got a little back chat going on and, [00:43:06] and, you know, all I see is, uh, heart emojis and, and, and sort of, uh, embracement of, of you and, [00:43:13] and thank you for sort of your candor. Um, and, you know, man, I, I'm, I'm at a loss of words and, [00:43:23] and, and that's not usually like me for those who know me. So what I will say, look, what I will say [00:43:30] is, um, uh, it is 8 41 PM Eastern time. Uh, so it is around that time where we usually open up for [00:43:37] the audience to pop up on stage and ask questions. So for those who, who are new, because there are a [00:43:42] few new folks in the room, uh, if you don't know how to use the, uh, how to jump up on stage, [00:43:47] there's a little hand, uh, that you'll see on your screen. If you want to sort of trust that hand, [00:43:52] that's you raising your hand, we'll bring you up on stage. And then once you jump on stage, [00:43:57] we'll ask that you just hit the mute button. If not, we'll mute you until it's your turn to speak. [00:44:01] Uh, and then you can ask a question of Pam or contribute to the conversation, uh, in any way [00:44:06] that you would like, uh, without, uh, before we get over to Ryan, I do want to, uh, give, uh, [00:44:12] our other resident moderator, uh, David Cass, an opportunity to sort of, uh, uh, jump into the [00:44:17] conversation if you like, or at the very least, David, just introduce yourself. If you want to jump in [00:44:22] with a question, go ahead. If not, we'll, we'll let you get settled and then we'll go to Ryan. [00:44:26] Uh, thanks Tomas. We can definitely open up for questions. Happy, happy to be joining you guys. [00:44:30] I saw the chats going on while I was finishing up work. I'm like, man, I got to join the call. [00:44:34] Uh, so David Cass, uh, senior partner in law and forensics, long time TISO, uh, former federal appointee, [00:44:40] but you know, always happy to join these conversations. And from the, the chats that were going on, [00:44:44] I'm like, Oh my God, I got to finish my work so I can join. But yeah, so I'm a, a little bit too [00:44:48] late to the dance for any questions. So I'll, uh, hand it back to you. [00:44:51] No, sounds good. Sounds good. So look, this is our weekly fireside chat. We're going to run to [00:44:56] about 9 30 PM Eastern time to be respectful of everybody's time. Uh, so if you do have a question [00:45:02] or something burning that you want to ask and you, and you don't want to jump off our stage, [00:45:05] you can use the chat, uh, cause there is a room chat. And if you do want to jump up our stage again, [00:45:11] raise your hand, we'll bring you up. Uh, if you're not following our fireside chat, [00:45:14] there's a little green monopoly house on the top left of your screen, right next to it says fireside [00:45:18] chat, click that. And you can follow the club and see who we have, uh, up coming up next week. [00:45:24] Uh, but we do this every single Wednesday and Pam, this is we, last week we celebrated our one year [00:45:30] anniversary. Uh, hard to believe that we've been at this for one full year. So you are guest number, [00:45:36] what do we say? 54, I believe, right? Cause I think we have 53. [00:45:39] Yeah. So, uh, no, so thank you. Thank you for, uh, thank you for accepting, uh, the invitation to [00:45:48] sort of, uh, join us on stage and in the hot seat, as we like to call it. All right. So without further [00:45:53] ado, Ryan, thanks for popping up on stage. Anything you want to ask Pam? Thanks Tomas. Hey everybody. [00:45:59] Um, hi Pam. Nice to meet you. Uh, I think I've seen you here once or twice, you know, as a listener to [00:46:05] see what it would be like. So just happy to finally hear your story. Um, and you know, I think, uh, [00:46:12] probably pretty early on when you were telling your story, you were saying how you're passionate about [00:46:16] trying to help women get out of their way. And I'm just curious if, you know, I'm sure it sounds [00:46:21] like you might be speaking from experience and we just want to know if you can maybe, maybe talk more [00:46:25] about like how you, if you did, were standing in your way in your own way or how you kind of realize [00:46:30] that that's something I mean, women or people do and how, again, how you realize that, how you [00:46:36] overcame it. And like, if you think that that's kind of like a one-time deal, like, Hey, we, we do [00:46:41] that and we realize it and we stop or, you know, throughout our career, do you find that every now [00:46:46] and then maybe there's some sort of, um, you know, way that we stand in our own way, or I don't want to [00:46:50] say self-sabotage, but right. Like just kind of whatever that is, if it's imposter syndrome, whatever that [00:46:56] is, like, how do we, you know, how do you keep championing through it and what advice would you [00:47:01] give on that? And then just going to throw this out there. You know, I kind of feel inspired from maybe [00:47:06] two months ago, we had someone up and they had some people that worked with them previously and [00:47:13] they had had someone share a story or two. So I think I saw some newbies and in the club and would [00:47:18] love to just maybe invite some people if they have a great story. I mean, it sounds like you've been a [00:47:22] great leader and a great mentor and just thinking out loud. So hope that's not too much. Looking [00:47:27] forward to your answer. I don't think that's too much. Um, um, the getting out of our own way, um, [00:47:41] that's definitely from experience that is self doubt. That is the chirping in your head that you hear [00:47:50] incessantly. Um, you know, imposter syndrome is something that's not really something I relate to. [00:48:00] Um, so I'll try to answer that in a minute. But the one thing that I can say about helping women get out [00:48:08] of their own way is that we build these stories in our heads, men and women alike. And the reason I'm [00:48:16] focused on women is we definitely need women to step into the STEM world. We, we need more diversity in [00:48:26] this space. And I was talking to someone today about that and I was so grateful that they were in line [00:48:35] with my thinking that diversity in thought and in problem solving will help us find solutions faster [00:48:46] and more applicable and with less conflict in my mind. Um, conflict can mean a lot of things, but [00:48:59] I just think that bringing diversity to bear is important and I am a female. And so the reason I chose [00:49:09] helping other women is because one, I wasn't fostering those relationships and, and women were fostering [00:49:16] them with me and I felt guilty without, for lack of better, um, terminology. The, the one thing I can say about [00:49:25] what that looks like is it, it can be anything. It, I, I had a young woman that didn't want to apply to a job. [00:49:34] When I literally told her apply for this job, you are, you, you absolutely can fulfill this role. We will teach you. [00:49:46] We, we want young female minds in this position, just go through the process. And so helping her [00:49:55] stop thinking that she would never be able to do it before she even tried is, is, is, is an example of [00:50:01] helping women get out of their own way. There are other examples of women that have children that, [00:50:09] you know, talk about the fact that their children aren't listening to them, right. It has nothing to do [00:50:14] with cyber, um, or, uh, information technology, but it's, it's, it's that it, in essence, uh, Ryan, [00:50:22] just being there for women, paying attention, making sure that they understand that they can, they, [00:50:29] they have people, they have leaders in this role that they can look up to. And I know them, I, I'm around [00:50:36] them all the time. Um, whether it's, you know, a diverse male candidate, whether it's a female, [00:50:45] whether it's a diverse female, there are examples all around us. And, and just making sure that young [00:50:52] women see it and they know that it is possible. And yes, they can, they can absolutely have a family. [00:51:00] They can absolutely have a career. Um, and it's just walking through those scenarios with, [00:51:07] with individuals that need help processing it and talking through it. So that's the best way that I [00:51:14] can describe it, Ryan. And I can tell you, I was asked by a very, very smart, um, [00:51:21] um, I, I respect her immensely. She interviewed me and she asked me that one question. She said, [00:51:28] have you had, do you, you know, she asked me off the record actually, um, [00:51:34] have you experienced imposter syndrome? And my answer was no. Um, [00:51:42] I can tell you, I've been around a lot of people in my life and my parents told me at a very young age, [00:51:49] I could do anything I wanted. I just had to work hard for it. And I had to really, [00:51:54] sometimes as females, sometimes as minorities, we have to work harder. And that's what I did. [00:52:01] I worked harder and I just, I really didn't think I couldn't do it. Um, I really didn't think that I [00:52:07] was imposter. There are times where I doubt myself. There are many times I doubt myself, but imposter, [00:52:15] not really. Um, I've just never really felt that. And, and that's a topic that comes up a lot. [00:52:22] And I wish we could just dispel it. Um, I wish we could just take that out of our [00:52:28] vocabulary because I think it's doing us a disservice. If you want to know the truth. Um, [00:52:33] that's my personal opinion. My very personal opinion is it's holding us back. So get rid of it. [00:52:51] What's holding me back is trying to find a mute button. It's on mute. Sorry. Sorry, October. Thanks for that, [00:52:56] Ryan. Uh, and thanks. Thanks Pam. Wow. This is man so much here. So much here. Uh, Jennifer over to [00:53:05] you. Anything you want to ask Pam? Hey Tomas. Hi everybody. Thanks so much. Hi Pam. So nice to [00:53:11] virtually meet you and I'm, I'm enjoying, um, you're telling your story. Um, uh, one comment and I'm gonna [00:53:18] ask the question, the comment is on imposter syndrome. I think people might define it differently. Um, and I [00:53:22] I heard a great definition recently, which is just that we feel like other, obviously it's that we, [00:53:27] we feel like other people know more than we do, not that we're not qualified to do it, but that [00:53:31] they know more when actually, once you realize nobody knows more or we all know it differently, [00:53:36] um, that, that can be, you know, much more, um, uh, comforting or, you know, stabilizing, but, um, [00:53:44] hearing you, your, you know, the tone of your voice, in addition to the way you're, um, giving your [00:53:50] stories, the tone of the voice just sounds very like heartfelt, you sound very heartfelt and authentic. [00:53:55] And, um, and I was talking to someone this morning about this, like things that we don't admit, we [00:54:00] don't admit to ourselves, like we're plowing forward or we don't think, um, there's, there's things that [00:54:06] we just don't want to admit out loud because it might make us weaker or, um, I don't know, just feel [00:54:12] weaker, seem something. And so to admit, to say out loud in a room, you know, I was not great to people, [00:54:17] like to my mentees or to people around me. Um, and to say that, how do you feel about like, how is [00:54:24] bringing that, like, not only the realization for yourself, but starting to say it, um, out loud to [00:54:29] people, how is that feel to you? Or has, has that changed you? Um, so first of all, I like your [00:54:38] definition of imposter syndrome, because I don't, I don't feel like I'm not a know-it-all and quite [00:54:45] frankly, um, I don't, you know, if you think you're a know-it-all, then you need to check yourself [00:54:52] because you could totally learn something from everyone. I truly believe in that. And maybe that's [00:54:58] why I just don't understand the imposter syndrome conversation. Um, and forgive me for that. Like, [00:55:05] I, I, I just believe it's like, you know, don't let conversation. I, I, listen, I, I talked to a young [00:55:15] lady, uh, two days ago and I just, I saw an interaction and I basically stayed back and told [00:55:22] the young woman, I'm like, don't let anybody tell you who you are. You figure out who you are [00:55:29] and have, have your board of directors, have people that tell you the truth, get a family member, [00:55:35] get a friend, talk about, you know, your strengths, your weaknesses and what you can do about it and [00:55:42] focus on your strengths and move through this world with grace and love. And, you know, it conquers all, [00:55:50] I'm living proof of it. Um, I'm not, I, I'm not the smartest person in the room. When I'm the smartest [00:55:56] person in the room, it scares me to death. Like I can tell you that right now, but I'm constantly [00:56:04] looking to learn from others. I'm, I'm, I'm looking to read about, um, different cultures. I love [00:56:10] experiencing new cultures. I love immersing myself in, um, new cultures and, and how people think [00:56:17] differently. I think it's important. So forgive me if I, if, if, if I offended anyone or wasn't really [00:56:26] elegant about that description. Um, but I, I think your question is relevant for all of us, Jennifer, [00:56:33] like how do you, I, I'm just going to say it. I, I think it came with age for me. Um, the look in [00:56:42] yourself in the mirror, the really thinking about what matters to you. Um, I, I think the, the most [00:56:49] important thing to me is, uh, I guess it was about six years ago, someone asked me to write down what [00:56:58] was important in my life. And I have those five things, you know, and I think about them. And if [00:57:04] those things aren't a part of my life or my work, you know, if I'm not doing things for those five [00:57:10] values, those core values, I really have to think about it, um, and make decisions. So it's, it's not [00:57:18] easy. Um, and I don't get it right every time, but, um, I do try. I think we all should. It's similar [00:57:25] to like building teams and building a security program. And to just take this back to the [00:57:31] information security world is, you know, we're always looking at defense in depth. We're always [00:57:38] looking at what controls matter. We're always on the defensive and we're always talking like, [00:57:44] that's why I love ISACs and sharing information. That's why I love my current role is sharing [00:57:51] what works in different industries and what we're actually, what's actually making a difference. [00:57:58] That's why I'm so passionate about, you know, the security world is I want to fight back. I want to [00:58:04] be a part of the solution. I want to, I want to be there for my industry and I want to give back. So [00:58:13] yeah, you have to find what, what moves you, what you're passionate about. And, [00:58:17] and I think it's easier to kind of look in the mirror when, when you do that. [00:58:25] It also comes, um, Jennifer with, with leaders that tell you the truth and that you can really, [00:58:34] sit with constructive criticism. Like you can really listen to people and, and think about, [00:58:38] yeah, I could, I could have done that differently. Um, maybe that wasn't the best call. Um, I've had, [00:58:44] I've had people around me for a long time that I'm like, do you think I did that right? And, [00:58:49] and they're telling me the truth, you know, they're, yeah, I probably would have done that differently [00:58:54] if I were you. And, and they give me examples. So it's just opening yourself up to that constructive [00:59:00] criticism. Did that answer your question? Yeah. Thank you. And actually, yeah. And one, [00:59:07] one area is going with that. I, I, I'm with you cause we can't always perceive ourselves. Um, [00:59:12] you know, we don't, we, we, a lot of times are kind of blind to how others perceive us, [00:59:16] but, um, but also where I was going with that was also that, um, just hearing you talk about this, [00:59:20] because I think it's tough stuff to realize in ourselves. And I, I know there's points where I was, [00:59:24] um, really, uh, inadvertently rough on some people that part were part of our team. And I didn't [00:59:31] realize how my actions and behavior were affecting them. They weren't directed at them and it came out [00:59:35] later, but, um, but, but also in that, um, when we have these vulnerabilities or we realize these [00:59:40] things to, to say it out loud later can be, um, instead of making us vulnerable or weak, it actually [00:59:47] is empowering because we realize that other people have, you know, other people can come to us and go, [00:59:51] oh my God, I have that same issue or, or fear or whatever, um, or, or experience experience, [00:59:57] you know, experience. And I'm so glad I'm not the only person that had this. And, you know, [01:00:00] now we can look at how we all work through these things as we mature, as you say, as we mature and [01:00:06] get older and get these experiences. Yeah. So thank you. Thanks. Yeah. Yeah. And, and I'll add to that, [01:00:12] like what we do every day is complicated. It is hard. It is, you know, when I think about how you [01:00:22] explain what you do every day and the, you know, information security or cyber world, people don't [01:00:28] understand it. And you're, you know, sometimes you're running, you know, 24 seven for a long time. And, [01:00:35] you know, it's difficult. It's, we're constantly fighting the good fight. And so, you know, when [01:00:44] you're on call, when you've, when you've been in it for as long as I have, you have these ingrained, [01:00:51] you know, philosophies in your, and, you know, values and, you know, principles that you carry with you. [01:00:58] I think it's good for us to listen to the young people to tell us like, oh, well, that was 30 [01:01:04] years ago, Pam. And that's not how it is today. I mean, that's why I think listening to everyone [01:01:11] around you is super important. And I, I, you know, my experience is great. Um, I like to listen to young [01:01:17] people because they have a different perspective and that perspective is real and it is valuable. So, [01:01:25] you know, speaking up and speaking your mind and having a safe place to do so in this space, [01:01:33] I believe is super important. Pam, I think that's really great. This is Katie again. Um, [01:01:41] if I could ask just another question, kind of follow up, I love what you said, [01:01:44] you're fighting the good fight. It's hard. Um, but what does fighting the good fight mean to you? [01:01:51] Katie again. [01:01:56] Fighting the threat actors that we're all fighting, um, keeping our threat landscape, our, [01:02:04] our attack surface, you know, safe. Um, yeah, I don't know how to explain it. Um, [01:02:10] I think managing getting, no, I didn't mean for you to have to go into detail of like how Cisco's, [01:02:15] yeah, no, I mean more like, Oh no, no, no. I'm not talking about Cisco. I'm talking about the [01:02:20] security community as a community as a whole, we're all fighting the same threat actors, you know, [01:02:27] like that's what I mean, fighting the good fight, our space, fighting them off. Well, [01:02:33] we're constantly fighting them off. Yeah, no. And I think that what I was getting at too is, um, [01:02:40] you know, kind of what the, what's the thing in your belly? Like you clearly are like, you have a fire [01:02:44] for this, um, as a profession, you stayed in it for a long time. Um, and, um, yeah, just, you know, [01:02:51] kind of what, when you wake up in the morning, you think about when you go out and you consult with, [01:02:56] uh, CISOs from, it sounds like a number of, uh, global companies that are influencing the world. [01:03:02] Um, you know, I just, I like to, you know, this, this is a more laid back, like what motivates you? [01:03:07] Is it your son? Is it your family life? It's the future for my son. A 100% is the future for the [01:03:16] next generation. It is the privacy. Um, and you know, I'm, I do work for Cisco. This is, [01:03:23] but I will tell you privacy is important. It is a human right. And I believe in that. I, [01:03:31] I, I don't want people stealing that data. I think it's, I don't want people holding others for ransom for [01:03:40] money. It's like, I, you know, it's like, you know, it's, it's, it's terrible. What's happening. [01:03:46] I, I, I, I, I'm just not, I'm not good with it. And that's what, that's what I'm working towards is a [01:03:55] better world for my son. And my family, you know, you know, listen, I, people don't know what I do. [01:04:03] They, you know, my family, um, sometimes I try to describe it. I don't know if you do, [01:04:09] I'm sure everyone on this call. I love that you said that too, because I think that, uh, we all [01:04:17] have to try to explain what we do at our, with our families. And, um, I have a nine year old. I also [01:04:21] have a 20 and a 17 year old, and they've all been with me through the journey that I've gone through [01:04:27] in this industry. So yeah, I love that. You know, when you think about how you explain this to your son, [01:04:32] and I thought that was a very beautiful answer though, too, is why do you do this, you know, [01:04:36] to make the world a better place? I think that's amazing. And I think it's a lot of what we do here, [01:04:40] you know, and, um, probably a good time to reset the room. Even, um, this is, you know, the, the [01:04:45] fireside chat, which is, you know, something we do every single Wednesday night. And it really is a [01:04:51] place where we can, as you know, security professionals come together as a community and talk about the things [01:04:56] that mattered us the most, um, from a more personal perspective and understanding people's [01:05:01] backgrounds, et cetera. So, so I do a quick reset since we're already at eight o'clock, it's a nine [01:05:06] o'clock Eastern. Uh, Tomas, do you want to do another quick question or two before I go back to [01:05:12] the audience to Lisa and Eve? No, no, you're, you're good, Katie. Go to Lisa. Okay. Lisa, [01:05:18] you've been on the stage to ask your question. Thank you. Hi, Pam. Um, I have two questions for you. Um, [01:05:25] I love that you said we need more girls in STEM and, um, I, my, I have twins who are in fifth grade [01:05:35] in elementary school and the school is looking for, um, speakers for basically a career day. So [01:05:42] I was thinking of going and talking, uh, I'm in a non-technical role and, uh, but I get a, I love [01:05:50] numbers. I'm a, I'm a operations business operations manager. So I'm great with numbers and I love [01:05:56] science. Uh, in the previous life, I have a minor in physics. I just didn't pursue that as a career, [01:06:02] but I love science. I love math. Um, but yet I'm, I'm a little nervous about trying to go talk to all [01:06:09] these kids and not really sure what to say to them to get them excited about STEM. So with that in mind, [01:06:16] um, you know, have you done anything like that? And, and, you know, what might you say to, [01:06:22] to elementary kids, um, to get them excited about STEM? And then my second question was, [01:06:30] was a little simpler. Um, if you are following March Madness, who do you pick for the final two? [01:06:38] That's it. Oh my gosh. So I'm going to answer your second question first. Um, I love hockey. [01:06:46] Um, my husband and I are hockey fans. We are season ticket holders to the Tampa Bay Lightning. [01:06:51] Go Bolts. Um, I'm not following March Madness. Don't hate me. [01:06:58] So your pick is my pick. How about that? [01:07:00] Uh, well, we're in the NFL room, so I probably should. [01:07:04] I was about to say, it's okay, Pam. As long as y'all say you don't like football, you're fine. [01:07:08] Listen, I, Tampa Bay Bucks. I told Tomas, I'm like, I'm coming to LA. We are going, [01:07:14] but the LA Rams just killed us. And I have nothing else to say about that. But yes. [01:07:20] I like all, I like all 32 teams equally. And I threw them on at the record state there. [01:07:26] Tomas, you are amazing. I love it. Um, I do not like all hockey teams. [01:07:36] Okay. So your question about how do you inspire, um, kids? So my son has, uh, every Christmas we [01:07:45] buy him, this KiwiCo. If you don't know about it, there, there's like this box and it's like STEM related. [01:07:52] Um, he loves it. He, he, he absolutely, he's four years old. Um, so elementary kids, I, [01:08:04] I personally like to tell stories. I like to get them involved in things that they love. So I would [01:08:10] probably reach into the teacher group and talk about like what they're excited about. Um, I, I talk to [01:08:18] my son all the time about, you know, going to the moon, being an astronaut, planes. He loves it. He [01:08:24] absolutely loves it. And what it takes to do that. He loves the, the mathematical games. I would make it [01:08:31] fun and entertaining, but I would reach into the teacher community. I do not have an elementary [01:08:36] student. I can get back to you on what I would do, but that's one question I cannot answer. Maybe [01:08:42] one of the audience members can help. I just relate to that. I can help. I can help. I have an 11 year [01:08:48] old. And also every time we would do the take care of children to work day, I would actually plan the [01:08:54] network security activities. So I would, if you like mathematics and you're into physics, like I would [01:09:02] actually do a activity where they can, you can have string, they can be routers, a router can go down. [01:09:10] Then they have to reroute, or you can do a cryptography activity where they're like [01:09:15] deciphering code or something like that. Give them an activity to do. And then you talk about how that [01:09:22] relates to what you do and how they are already, you know, now you, you kind of crown them with being [01:09:29] now a part of that profession. So you make it relatable and then you like, you have them do the [01:09:35] work, make it super fun. And then say, congratulations. You're now a part of the, you know, mathematics, [01:09:42] physics, whatever you want to do community. And now they're actually physicians or mathematics or [01:09:47] mathematicians or cyber professionals. [01:09:51] Like this is, this is like, you know, um, business 101, know your audience, right? Like, [01:10:03] you know, whether you're talking to a business partner, don't use security lingo, whether you're [01:10:09] talking to a board member, definitely, you know, talk about it in layman's terms and how business [01:10:15] outcomes matter and how it's affecting your business, you know, just know your audience. So you're going to [01:10:20] have to get to know those elementary school kids. [01:10:29] We'll let her get back. I'm sure somebody interrupted her. [01:10:32] It looks like she's on mute. There we go. [01:10:34] Know your audience. That was, sorry, Tomas. [01:10:37] Yeah, somebody, somebody, somebody popped in. No, I figured somebody popped in to chat with you. So, [01:10:42] uh, if you're, if you're good to talk, go right ahead. [01:10:44] Yeah. Yeah. So like, I'm literally in a closet. I should take a picture, send it to you, Tomas. [01:10:50] But know your audience, even elementary school, I would, I would get to know who they are and what [01:10:56] they're passionate about. You know, is it Legos? Is it, you know, what's the latest? Is it a game? [01:11:03] Is, you know, talk through the game, like apply it to them, you know, build a story around it. [01:11:08] Great. Thank you, Pam. Thank you, Octavia. [01:11:14] Thank you, Lisa. Thanks for popping up on stage and asking your question. I was just going to comment, [01:11:19] Pam, I remember those boxes. I don't know if they were called [01:11:22] Cuiwi or Kiwi, uh, back when my, my son is 19. So, uh, but I remember buying, buying my son one of [01:11:29] those boxes and, uh, he loved to, uh, look at the box and put it on the side. Uh, he is not a technology [01:11:37] person. He loves to play with his phone. He loves to play his games, but for some reason, [01:11:41] he didn't want to follow in dad's footsteps. [01:11:45] How do I spell that? [01:11:46] Maybe one of... [01:11:48] How do I spell that? [01:11:49] Uh, go ahead, Pam. [01:11:51] K-I-W-I-C-O. KiwiCo, I think is the company name. [01:11:57] KiwiCo. Okay. Great. Thanks. [01:12:00] Yeah. I'll talk about my son until he actually joins one of these clubhouse chats and then I won't talk [01:12:05] about him anymore. He is a lovely son. [01:12:08] I know. We're going to get him on. We're going to get him on. [01:12:13] And we're going to make you talk about him. [01:12:14] No, we're not doing that. [01:12:15] Say it to your face. Say it with your chest. [01:12:18] Say it with your chest. Oh, I will, I will, uh, I will leave that alone. [01:12:23] He is, he is about my height and he, uh, he, he likes to wrestle. So, uh, interesting times for [01:12:30] this old dad and his old back. But, uh, anyways, thank you, Lisa. Eve, over to you. Anything you [01:12:36] want to ask, uh, Pam? [01:12:37] Thank you, Tomas. Hi, everyone. Hi, Pam. Um, thank you so much for sharing your story. [01:12:45] Um, I think you mentioned multiple times that you're very logical in, like, problem solving and [01:12:51] the way you think. Yet you do sound very conscious and intuitive in managing relationships, which I [01:12:58] definitely appreciate. Um, so my question is, um, since you talked about being intentional in [01:13:06] mentoring and networking, and I imagine you have, you know, different people reaching out to you, [01:13:12] wanting different things from you. Um, how do you navigate, like, who of these people you invest into [01:13:20] and, you know, how much you pour into them, like how much of your time and energy you would, you know, [01:13:26] allocate for people? Um, cause I think one thing we all can, like, it's very important, but sometimes [01:13:34] you struggle with this energy management. So, um, I wonder if you have any technical advice you can [01:13:41] provide, um, any like personal rules or boundaries you apply. Um, if you have an example, you can share [01:13:49] maybe some, something positive or negative experience you've had in the past. Um, that would be great. [01:13:55] Thank you. Wow. That's a great question, Eve. Um, so a couple things, um, [01:14:04] yes, I have boundaries and I can tell you that when you get to a point where you're allowing or you're [01:14:14] enabling people to break boundaries with you and you learn from those experiences, it's a very, [01:14:22] very tough, tough thing to, to kind of settle yourself with. Um, I have, I have experiences with [01:14:34] people breaking boundaries with me. I would set boundaries and they would break them and I would [01:14:38] enable that behavior. I read a book, um, you can write this down, essentialism. Um, I tell everyone [01:14:47] about it that I can, that I can, um, reach, um, essentialism, Greg McCowan, he wrote this book [01:14:56] and I did the audible and I think I've listened to it five times. A mentor gave it to me and basically [01:15:04] that line where I said, you can do anything you want, but not all at the same time came up from that [01:15:08] book. Um, it talks about the power of saying no. Um, I'm a people pleaser. Uh, I want people to like me. [01:15:19] I'm an introvert. I'm fed by my alone time. Hence being in the closet doesn't bother me at all. Um, [01:15:27] the thing about boundaries is you have to understand your limits. Um, when I reach those limits, um, [01:15:38] I have to make hard decisions and sometimes even Will Smith talked about it in his book where the [01:15:44] first time he told someone, no, he just went home and cried about it. He literally went home and cried [01:15:50] and his book is very entertaining by the way. Um, essentialism is very [01:15:57] academic and practical. You can put it into practice. Um, the lessons learned by Will Smith are very [01:16:05] not only entertaining, but valuable. His storytelling ability is just bar none, one of the best. But [01:16:14] if, if you have, I have a husband who helps me with my commitments and helps me understand when I'm [01:16:24] overwhelmed and when I need to take a step back. And that's very difficult to do. And it's very personal [01:16:31] to who you are. So you have to really have the ability to look inside of yourself and decide what [01:16:39] is valuable to you. When I'm looking at mentees, um, right now I have about five and I meet with them [01:16:47] on a quarterly basis. So that's not a lot of time. If you think about 30 minutes every quarter for five [01:16:52] people. Um, so I know what my maximum number would be. And if I get anywhere close to it, I start dialing [01:17:01] it back. Um, sometimes those boundaries are professional related and you got to figure out [01:17:07] how to talk to your leadership about it. That can be a very difficult conversation to have when you're, [01:17:15] you know, um, in a corporate environment or a business environment. So you have to do that with, um, tact [01:17:23] and professionalism and very delicately. So, um, I've been able to navigate a lot of very difficult [01:17:29] situations and it was a positive result. Some have been negative. I can tell you, um, they're not all [01:17:37] the same. So you just have to navigate it, you know, case by case. Thank you. And to follow up on that. So [01:17:46] yeah, I understand if it's within your organization, I feel like there's already like a foundational level of [01:17:53] trust and like, it is a bit easier to navigate. And what about people that just kind of reach out to [01:18:00] you on LinkedIn, right? And how are, however they found you and you know, they're bombarding you with [01:18:07] questions. How do you handle that? So I literally had a gentleman, my tag at this conference and [01:18:18] he said, I'm so sorry to ask you this, but my daughter is in your field and I saw your title. [01:18:28] Can you mentor her? Um, so yeah, it's, and LinkedIn can be very overwhelming. Um, [01:18:38] I pick and choose based on, um, whether they're in the cyber field, where they're looking to get in. [01:18:44] And, and I, I try to read as much as I can, but you're right. LinkedIn is very difficult to manage. [01:18:50] Um, and I do my best. I'm not great at it. Um, and if you have reached out to me on LinkedIn and [01:18:55] I've not responded, I apologize right now. I'm not good at it. Um, but I try, I do my very best and I [01:19:03] don't get to all, um, to your point. Um, and, and that's, that's just the way the world works, right? [01:19:10] Like it's a, it's definitely who, you know, and if you have a contact that you feel strongly about [01:19:17] and that has, you know, you have a relationship with, those are top priority. Um, people that [01:19:23] you meet on the street, it's really how they talk to you. Um, this gentleman, you could just see the [01:19:30] pride in his eyes and you could see that he knew that she needed a strong female presence in her life. [01:19:39] And he spoke to me, he literally just spoke to me. So she's actually on my calendar in the next [01:19:45] couple of months. So it really just has to be individual based. And I don't really have, um, [01:19:51] any advice about the volume. Um, I don't get to everyone. It's just not, it's quite frankly, [01:19:56] it's just not possible. But, um, if I have a relationship with you, you're a top priority. [01:20:02] If you know me, you're also a top priority and I try to balance as best I can and you don't mentor [01:20:10] forever. You know, you, you really need, if you're mentoring today or you have a mentor, [01:20:15] you need to change it out. You know, at least once every other year or every year. [01:20:22] That's it. Yeah. Thank you. [01:20:24] Thanks. Thanks Steve. Thanks for popping up on stage and asking your question. And it's good to [01:20:30] know that I'm not the only one that hasn't been able to get to all of the LinkedIn messages that [01:20:34] I received. Not like I received hundreds, but I do receive some and it's hard to get to all of them. But, [01:20:39] um, I hear you, Pam, I hear you. The struggle is real. The struggle is real. Yep. Ryan, are you, [01:20:49] did you come back on stage? You got another question? Go ahead, Ryan. I did, but I gotta say, [01:20:54] right. This is like so timely. I mean, just being persistent, right. I sent you a LinkedIn message. [01:21:00] You responded, you brought me here and then like, you know, eventually you did give me some time to [01:21:04] ask. So like, I don't know if that speaks for anyone else. Again, just gotta give you kudos there. [01:21:10] Um, persistence, right. But my question again now, and I think I've asked this a few times now, like, [01:21:16] Pam, just, you know, curious again, I think before you said you came into security kicking and screaming, [01:21:22] if I heard you right, when you were talking about your origin story. So just kind of curious when you [01:21:29] decided maybe to be a CISO or how that opportunity kind of like, how did you realize that either you [01:21:35] wanted to, that that was the right role for you? Um, what did you do to prepare? And if you could do [01:21:41] your career all over again, is there like one thing you would change or do better or faster? [01:21:51] Wow. Those are great questions. [01:21:53] Um, first kicking and screaming. Um, I was asked to come over to security, um, because, uh, the CISO and [01:22:05] the deputy CISO at the time saw my leadership ability. And, you know, when you have an opportunity like [01:22:12] that, um, typically you say yes, um, when someone wants you to change careers. My apprehension was that I [01:22:21] had no experience as a practitioner in security. I absolutely had infrastructure services. Um, [01:22:31] I mean, I ran some of the largest accounts with CRIT SIT calls and, um, I ran an application [01:22:39] development group, was on call 24 seven for 15 years. I think I mentioned that. So, and I literally, [01:22:46] I, you know, the bank where I was, I was the one that everyone forced to talk to the CISO, you know, [01:22:54] at the time to negotiate changes and product changes and, you know, bringing in a new platform, um, really a new [01:23:08] technology, um, and a way of doing business. So, um, I had experience with security, but I did not have a [01:23:15] CISSP. I didn't have the credentials that, you know, the team that I was running had. I was only a leader, [01:23:25] um, in IT. So, I was apprehensive about leading a team where I had never performed the duties day to day. [01:23:38] Um, but what I, what I experienced was beautiful. Um, it was a partnership between professionals [01:23:51] that respected each other and took advantage of each other's skill sets to the point that we learned from [01:23:59] each other and we built something amazing, um, because of it. And so my apprehensive kicking and [01:24:08] screaming, I was just like, what you want me to do? What I, you know, security people are, you know, [01:24:16] they're kind of weird. And, and I recognize I'm talking to security people. I've been a nerd my entire [01:24:23] life, but I didn't understand them and I didn't understand what they did every day. And it, and it, [01:24:32] it intimidated me flat out intimidated me. Um, but I'd been in those situations before [01:24:39] and I respected the team when I met them. And today I, I call those people, my friends, [01:24:48] like they're some of the best CISOs and deputy CISOs in the world. And I, I can tell you that they're [01:24:54] strong leaders. And I think that I had a part to play in that and I'm proud of that. Um, and they have [01:25:01] taught me amazing, amazing concepts and perspectives that I would not have had. Would I change anything? [01:25:11] I, I have regrets in my life. Um, my career is not one of them. Um, I, I can tell you that I made choices [01:25:26] for all the right reasons. I made choices to support my family. I made choices because someone asked me to [01:25:33] that, that loved me and I have, I have built a career on trying to do the right thing by as many people [01:25:45] as I can. And I know that there are people out there in the world that I've either fired or laid off or [01:25:52] had to make the, the call, um, the hard decisions that would probably disagree with, with me. Um, and I [01:26:01] have to own that. And so those are the things in life that you, you look back on and you think, could [01:26:08] you have done it better? Probably, um, human, but I did the best I could with what I knew at the time [01:26:16] and the budget, the, the cycles, the attention that, um, I gave. So I think that my career is, uh, unique. Uh, [01:26:26] it's, uh, certainly one that I've tried to do right by everybody around me and I've probably failed [01:26:33] miserably in certain cases, but I've definitely done the best that I can. And I think that's all [01:26:37] you can ask of people. Thanks, Ryan. Thanks for, uh, popping up on stage and asking your question. [01:26:49] And thank you Pam for your response. Uh, so it is, it is, uh, six minutes left, uh, in the evening for [01:26:55] this evening's, uh, um, conversation with Pam. So if there's any questions from anybody in the audience, [01:27:01] uh, I did see a hand raised, but person is right and not around or took a bathroom break. No bathroom [01:27:07] breaks while we're doing the fireside chat, no bathroom breaks. Uh, but if anybody wants to pop [01:27:12] up on stage and ask a question of Pam, uh, please raise your hand and we will bring you up on stage. [01:27:16] If you're, uh, relatively new in our fireside chat, uh, you can click the little greenhouse on the top [01:27:22] right. Sorry, left of your screen and you can join our fireside chat. And when you do pop up on stage, [01:27:28] uh, it's usually a good thing to mute yourself, uh, so that we don't, uh, hear the background noise, [01:27:32] but, uh, I just, uh, I just muted you. Feel free to unmute and ask your question. [01:27:40] Yeah. Hi, great story, Pam. Uh, [01:27:45] I would like to know a little bit more about the challenges that you had around handling a crisis, [01:27:52] like a big cyber crisis with the different parties that you had to interact with, like PR, [01:28:00] legal compliance, and so on. [01:28:06] Yeah. Um, [01:28:10] it's, it's, it's an orchestra of sorts. Um, I think everybody plays a role in a situation like that. [01:28:20] And to allow people to perform in their role at the best of their abilities is really the crucial and [01:28:27] the crux of, of what really matters in those situations. Um, I can tell you that, um, I, [01:28:36] I, I struggle when I talk to assist those today to talk about, you know, the best, the best laid plan, [01:28:43] um, to prepare for an incident like what I and others have experienced. It is, it's difficult. It is, [01:28:56] it is, um, it's hard. Um, it's overwhelming and it works on your soul. I'll, I'll tell you that it makes [01:29:06] you, it makes you question your abilities in ways that I can't even explain. Um, you know, [01:29:14] it, it's not imposter syndrome. It's definitely, you, you feel, you know, when you, when you go to [01:29:22] work every day and you want to protect company and you know, inevitably they're going to get in [01:29:30] and you're going to go through a situation like that. You just have to prepare the best you can [01:29:38] and you have to have the roles laid out and you have to practice. Um, you practice, practice, practice, [01:29:45] and have a second, third, fourth string. I mean, you know, Tomas can tell you about that. Like, [01:29:54] make sure you have people that can step in and all the roles that are required for a situation like [01:30:01] that. And football games are a great analogy, right? You know, they have a first, second, [01:30:05] third string. So does, so does hockey, right? Like, and you, you test those out, um, time and time again, [01:30:11] and you just prepare the best you can and you respond. And I was fortunate to have a lot of [01:30:19] phenomenal, phenomenal people. Um, when I went through it, so it's, it's, it's, it's not easy. Um, [01:30:32] preparation is key. [01:30:37] Thanks Nabil. Thanks for popping up on stage and asking your question. Uh, and obviously if [01:30:41] you have any, any further sort of questions on, on that, I'm sure Pam wouldn't mind if you try to [01:30:47] connect with her, uh, maybe over LinkedIn. Um, and if you, you know, Pam talks to CISOs and advise [01:30:53] the CISO, so, you know, it's part of her profession. So I'm sure that, uh, an opportunity if you wanted [01:30:58] to exercise that, uh, Lisa came back for round two, coming back up on stage, anything you want to ask Pam [01:31:03] again? Go. Yeah. Hi, Pam. I got a kind of a simple question, but a hard one at the same time. [01:31:10] It's very simply what's next for Pam. Uh, what do you, what do you want to accomplish over the next [01:31:15] say three to five years, both personally and professionally? [01:31:21] You know, um, I chose Cisco intentionally. Um, I wanted to bring my experience to a company that had [01:31:32] the fuel and the power to make a difference. And so that's my focus is to elevate the CISOs voice, [01:31:43] to elevate our community, um, to educate, to really look to the next generation of security professionals [01:31:54] and empower them, educate them to, to really look at like the deputies CISOs, like to give back to our [01:32:03] communities. And that's really our mission and what we do every day. And I'm proud to be on a team that [01:32:11] that is passionate about what we do. Um, so that's, that's, that's what I want. Um, three to five years. [01:32:21] I do think that, you know, my son's four, um, making sure that I am present and I am managing my own [01:32:30] boundaries, but really managing that security elevation and fighting that good fight. Um, it sounds, um, [01:32:43] kitschy. Uh, I don't care. Um, you know, I, I want to be a part of the solution. I want to be a voice in [01:32:52] this community. And for a long time I was silent. Um, but I'm in a position now where I, I don't have to [01:33:00] be anymore and I can help the community and really work, get my hands dirty and do the good work to [01:33:07] make our community as powerful as we can be. Great. Thank you. Thanks. Thanks Lisa. Thanks for popping up [01:33:19] on stage and asking you a question. Um, and Pam, we, we definitely need you in this community. We need your, [01:33:25] your voice. We need more strong, powerful women to, uh, to continue to, you know, pay it, uh, [01:33:31] paved the way for, for others to join. So, uh, you know, it's always a pleasure when I, when I get a [01:33:36] chance to chat with you, uh, and I'm sure others would feel the same if they had the opportunity. [01:33:42] Um, so thank you for everything that you're, that you're working on and doing. Um, with that said, [01:33:48] it is 9 31 PM Eastern time. I do want to be respectful of Pam's high. I want to make sure that she gets out of [01:33:53] that closet at the Hems conference and not stay in there, uh, because we don't want her to be all [01:33:59] claustrophobic. It's hilarious. And, and, uh, and, uh, where is that conference at by the way? What city is it in? [01:34:06] It's in Orlando. I call it rat town. Can I say that out loud? Can I call it rat town? [01:34:13] No, no, no, no, no. Oh, rat town because it is Disney. I got it. I get it. I'm with it. You see? Hey, [01:34:19] I'm getting that Floridian swing slang lingo. No, please stop. Please stop. Come on, Octavia. Come [01:34:28] on. That was a great. That was great. I didn't say rat town. I agree with her. I'm from, I'm from [01:34:33] Fort Lauderdale as you all know, and, uh, I hate Orlando, but yes, no, it's been a great conference. [01:34:39] I've met a lot of interesting people and I'm actually, uh, the people that have been interrupting me [01:34:44] or the staff at the capital of the garage probably get out of their closet. Can you please leave our [01:34:51] closet right now? What was the name of the book that you mentioned? I, I, I missed it. You mentioned [01:34:58] it. I wanted to add it on my audible list. Yeah. It's essentialism. Greg McCowan. Got it. The [01:35:06] pursuit of doing less, I think is the subtitle. That's not that speaks to us. Doing less. That's [01:35:14] big. Can we, can we have a book that talks about the Priscilla doing less dad jokes? That'd be great. [01:35:22] Octavia, there's a great, uh, uh, I don't want to plug the person on, on Instagram, but there is an [01:35:27] actual dad jokes, uh, I know my Instagram page. There's a book too. My son walks around saying [01:35:34] I'm in them all the time. It's not okay. Oh, it's, I gotta go look for that. That is my next, uh, best [01:35:42] download. Anyway, Pam, I do want to ask you, um, sorry, mods, any final questions for, for Pam [01:35:49] before I get to, uh, I guess my typical last question. No questions. I just want to say, Pam, [01:35:56] you know, thank you so much for just being honest and raw and very, um, transparent. I think that's what we [01:36:03] need, especially for those who are, um, you know, who have walked in your shoes and, and have had those, uh, [01:36:12] those hard conversations where people doubting them and you've overcome. So thank you for just being you. [01:36:19] Absolutely. [01:36:23] So, Pam, [01:36:24] last question of the evening. If there was one piece of advice that you would give to the [01:36:30] younger Pam, what would it be and why? [01:36:39] You're going to make a lot of mistakes, but everything's going to be okay. [01:36:47] I worry a lot, Tomas. I was a worrier as a child, worrier, worrier as an adult. Um, [01:36:54] but I've learned to kind of sit with, with life and, you know, take it as it comes and everything's [01:37:01] going to be okay. You know, we're all in this together and yeah, don't worry so much, you know, [01:37:08] try things, experience, fulfill your love of adventure and get out there and do great things. [01:37:15] Absolutely. Look, if you're not making mistakes, you're not trying hard enough to, uh, to continue to grow. [01:37:22] So, uh, those are opportunities to make sure that you're headed in a direction that is not the one that you just [01:37:29] left. Uh, so learn from your mistakes and keep it, keep moving forward. All right, look, this is our, this is our evening. [01:37:35] Uh, I do want to take a moment, uh, just really, really quickly to, to, to obviously thank Pam for, for joining us this evening. [01:37:42] Um, I want to also, uh, I would like to also remind everybody we'll be back here next week. Again, [01:37:48] we do this every Wednesday between 8 PM Eastern time and 9 30 PM Eastern time. We have Prabhup joining us [01:37:54] the next week. So please, uh, tune into that conversation next week. Uh, you have all the [01:37:59] details about Pam. If you want to sort of follow her on LinkedIn, uh, I'm sure, uh, feel free to do so. [01:38:04] And if anybody on stage has said something that resonated with you, feel free to follow them. I don't usually [01:38:08] say that, but I might as well just plug it since, since we have that opportunity. Um, [01:38:14] Mott's final words before we kind of conclude. [01:38:20] I'd just like to thank Pam again, because this has been a phenomenal conversation. I, um, so appreciate [01:38:28] all of the, um, tidbits and words of wisdom that you have and, and your radical candor when it comes to [01:38:35] some of the challenges that you face, some of the things that, um, you worry about, [01:38:41] and also what you've learned, um, having been in this profession, um, for a while. So just thank [01:38:47] you for giving of yourself so freely tonight and including us as part of your story. [01:38:52] No problem. Thank you for having me. [01:38:58] Thanks Pam. Have a great evening. Enjoy the rest of the conference. Uh, I'll talk to you soon. [01:39:04] Be well. And thank you, moderators. Thank you everybody for attending. Uh, have a great evening. [01:39:08] We'll see you next week. Cheers. Bye. Bye everybody. Bye everyone. [01:39:24] Bye.