Fireside Chat w/Warren Small, Senior Vice President, Global Head of Security Sales and Innovation @ NTT

Hey, good evening. This is the fireside chat. This evening will be with Warren Small. We're going to give it a few minutes for everybody to join this evening. In the meantime, I'll just welcome everybody to the fireside chat. For those who are new to the program, we are here once a month. We talk about all things cyber, but really this is an origin story conversation. So what we're going to do tonight with Warren is really get to know him. He has an interesting story that I, already have several questions. And all of the moderators are here to ask questions. questions, but feel free. We'll be, asking questions for the first half an hour or so. But those of you in the audience, please feel free to raise your hand and join us throughout the evening. Come up once, twice however many times as you feel feel led. But really looking forward to this conversation, but what I'd love to do is just do a quick round Robin on the intros for the moderators. I'll start with myself and then Warren we'll end with you and let you introduce yourself. And please, when you're doing that take your time. We want to get to know you. We have a long time together this evening. I'll go ahead and start myself off. I'll just say I'm Katie Hanahan Deputy CISO, Cybersecurity Strategist and co moderator of the Fireside Chat. Over to you, Tomas. Hey, everyone. It's Tomas Maldonado. I'm the CISO for the NFL. Russell, over to you. Hey, everybody. Welcome. So glad to be here. It's our monthly time to get together. Russell Eubanks has been in cyber for a long time, the former CISO and CIO for the Federal Reserve. The last four years, I've been running my own virtual CISO company. And with that, Vijay, over to you. Thank you, Russell. Hello, everybody. This is Vijay Bala here. I'm the CISO for the Asset Management Business at Goldman. Warren, glad to have you on board tonight. Stephen. Hey, everyone. Stephen Garcia. My most previous post was a VP of cybersecurity at FanDuel. Now, serving as a TA for a graduate course over at Harvard. Really enjoying the aspect of giving back. And I'll pass it over to you, Warren. Thank you very much. Wow. One incredible host. And thank you so much, Tomas, for the opportunity to introduce myself and to introduce a little bit about my journey and my origin. What an incredible privilege to use this platform to not only give back, as you said, Stephen, but give an opportunity to share with the audience, those who will listen in later. Just a little bit about, it takes. A big crew to get you going on your journey, but it also takes, a group of incredible human beings around you to help you form and shape your career. I've been at NTT now for many years and am incredibly fortunate to be based in the USA in California. For those listening they'll say, Sounds South African, sounds British, sounds Australian, where is he? Where is he really from? And I'll get there, but just a little bit about me. I know a lot of people, there's a there's a common thread that says South African people like to hear themselves talk. Or a lot of South Africans like to talk about themselves. I'll definitely say that's not me. And I'm more about talking about other people. Others, right? And talking about, what makes people special. Quick note. I am from South Africa. I was born in a small city, a coastal city called Durban. For those of you listening, for those of you who had the opportunity to travel to Durban, you would agree. It's an amazing place. For those of you who've never traveled to Durban, I'd highly encourage you to put it on your list of places to see. It's just. But the part that's the most magnificent is that it's a real community. It's a small community. It's a community made of a lot of. But immigrants for the wrong reasons that were, that was sent to South Africa to go in, go and work on the fields. I consider myself incredibly fortunate to have been born in Durban. I like to tell people I'm not from Johannesburg where Elon Musk is from. Not for any other reason, just because Elon Musk is from Johannesburg and more, and more so because Johannesburg. for the economic hub. It was known for the gold rush. A lot of people went to South Africa, went to Johannesburg to, to mine for gold. But I was from this beautiful coastal town and for anyone who's from Durban will, will agree with me that Not many people leave Durban and for the most part, people who are from Durban will, and leave Durban will migrate back to Durban because it's that beautiful, and the people are just incredibly Kind, incredibly humble, and hopefully through the call today, you'll get a sense of that humility from myself, or you'll get a sense of the kindness from myself. I was born into a small family a very close knit family. We were we encouraged each other. We were what you would call lower middle class and the common thread was, motivation to, to make a difference motivation to to have a try. And I consider myself incredibly fortunate that, I had that kind of upbringing because being an immigrant today, it's what, what defines us as good human beings, hardworking individuals, and being in the cyber security industry. I think it's an incredible privilege, but to have the rooted on giving back to have it rooted on humility and kindness, I think is what makes me an incredible person in this industry. And I look forward to connecting with anyone that joins anyone listens to this call because I'd like to give back. A little bit more people will say, he doesn't really sound South African. He sounds British. But that's more so because I also spent eight years living in Australia. And for those of you on the call listening who don't like load shedding or don't like social unrest, then I'd say, go to Australia. And I spent eight years. In Melbourne, Australia, and that was through being asked to come and do an acquisition of a managed security service provider which then they asked me to globalize that business. And that was incredibly interesting because again, it was. It was an amazing investment and an amazing opportunity to see how a small group of individuals could make a large impact, not only on the Asia Pacific continent, but also could make an impact globally. And that kind of got me motivated to do a lot more. around efficiency but being very mindful of effectiveness and leveraging people to make a difference globally. If you asked, people to describe who Warren Small is I think they would describe me as someone who's, incredibly considerate loves to help others. But also incredibly. Respectful in terms of, giving time because it's one of the luxuries that I think we, we all take for granted. Is time. How did I get to where I am today? And, how did I end up in corporate? I personally never had any role model in, in a co, in a large corporate or didn't even understand what a corporate was. But the two things that I knew was I wanted to help people. And I also wanted to live abroad. And look at it today, right? I have, I've achieved both of them. And for me, I feel like I've achieved a lot. But what did I want to do when I was growing up? I loved history and I was if you ask my history teacher, I was probably his best students because I love learning about people, but more so people who were making a positive impact in the world. Because. For me, it felt like some people who had an opportunity to make an impact were leaving a place or making or leaving a positive imprint on a place, whether it was through education or whether it was through infrastructure. And that's what drove me. But the thing that I was really passionate about was. About law. And I thought early on in my early years that I wanted to be a lawyer and not just a lawyer. I wanted to be a criminal lawyer because growing up in a low socioeconomic environment that's what you see a lot of, some of your friends, some of the people in the community getting themselves into trouble and it wasn't really anyone who was there to help them. I thought that would be myself. I thought I'd be the guy in the community that would be helping these guys get out of trouble. But I got myself involved in technology and was even more enthusiastic about being in technology. And if I look at my career today, you might say okay, law and technology, cyber there's a correlation. I never planned it, but it, it was definitely, something that I was more and more mindful of as I started working more in cyber security. And if you ask me, do I regret it? Do I regret being a lawyer? I'd say for the most part, sometimes I don't, because I still think, most people need to be told whether to do something, the right way. And if you do something the wrong way, you're gonna get yourself into trouble. And if you look at this, digital society that we live in today, a lot of people don't understand the negatives associated with technology. And, I feel like I have a lot more to offer, being in cyber security. And one of the reasons I'm so passionate about it. About connecting with humans and connecting with entrepreneurs, because I want to use cyber and I want to use technology, not only to make the world better, but to protect those using technology. At NTT, I am, I'm incredibly. Lucky I work with some of the smartest, most talented individuals, and that's what's given me the opportunity to be successful or given me the opportunity to see that there's a lot more that we can be doing as a community. And when I met Tomas and he gave and he offered me the opportunity to share with his community, I thought, how lucky am I? That out that I'm given the opportunity to talk and it made me consider, what I'd be talking about this evening to the audience. And I thought I'd start by talking about a conversation I had with a friend most recently who who said to me, what, I think we make our own luck. And I thought about that for a while and I thought. I don't think we make our own luck. I think while there's merit in us making our own luck, I think it's about opportunity. And I think it's about the opportunity to connect with someone. And I think it's the opportunity when you connect with someone. To learn something and take something from that person, whatever it may be. And then at the same time, you give them a little of you. And I think that's where the luck is created and I'll share with you being a an individual in cyber security who works globally. I can't tell you how many people in the world I know. And I was talking to. To somebody earlier today. And you said, Oh, Warren, you may know this person. And absolutely, I know that individual. And I say Warren you lived in South Africa. You made it. You may know that individual. Chances are, I don't because South Africa is 50 million people. But, if you're kind, if you are, if you respect everybody, then chances are, you may know someone in South Africa. So I started my career. In a solutions provider focused on cyber security, but always knew that I was not the smartest guy and needed to spend more time with some of those smartest individuals so that I could create a little bit more of luck for myself and fast forward. Almost 20 years, I've spent time across five continents. I've lived in three of those continents. And now I have the privilege of working with some of the greatest startups, but also some of the greatest technology companies. And while I've spent most of my time on the solution advisory side, I feel like I, I am definitely someone that not only has an opinion, but can offer some sound advice, regardless of who you are. And I always tell people, I tease and say, I'm a closet entrepreneur because. I spend most of my time with entrepreneurs today, but I've never created my own company. And for the most part, that gives me a little bit of insecurity, but I think there's an opportunity that when you work in a large organization like NTT, you get to have a different purview and maybe you understand a little bit more around some of the risks that you should not be taking but it gives our startups that we are working with today an opportunity for them to scale. So I look forward to the rest of this conversation. I look forward to some of your questions. And I look forward to sharing with the audience a little bit about my vision, my journey, and how we can make the world a more secure one. So much data to unpack. And thanks for that, Warren. And sorry, Katie, I know I saw you just come off mute. Sorry about that. I didn't mean to step in front of you, but if I may, you talked about impact Warren, and I was really curious to know who made an impact on you. And if you could share a little bit about that particular impact and impactful ness that was bestowed upon you. Yeah, great question, Thomas. I've been, as I said, I've been very lucky. And I know and many people have made an impact on me. But I'd have to say, if I were, if I was really being vulnerable and really being honest, I'd have to say, both my mother and father, right? They at at the core are what gives me a little bit of purpose on a daily basis, to be to be a better father to be a better parent, to be a better husband, to be a better friend, to be a better colleague, because I saw how hard my mother and father worked daily. And for how much, for how little they got in return for their labor. And they were able to raise, three amazing children. I've got I've got two great sisters two incredibly successful sisters with beautiful families. And I think it's, I think it's what my father showed me in the way he treated everyone. Thomas. When we lost him I had attended the church, for the most of my life where we, we had his sendoff. And I remember the only time, Thomas, we would open the doors Of the church was at Christmas or Easter, right? Big masses. And for my dad's send off. We had to open the doors because there were just so many people that wanted to come and pay tribute. So I'd have to say, I'd have to say my mother and father. I'd have to say, my dad made a made a left an imprint on me to be a person that was not only there for others, but touch people through every interaction for the positive from a career perspective. There's been, many great leaders and many kind leaders that have made an impact. But I most recently worked for an individual who is no longer at NTT. And we've stayed in contact. I'd almost say. On a daily basis, Thomas since he left NTT and the reason he made an impact on myself was because he never had an opinion but always offered advice. And for me, it was that leadership that made me feel comfortable by taking, any conversation, any idea, any problem to him, because It made me feel like he was a leader that not only trusted his team, but was there to ensure that his team was making progress. So I'd have to call out those two leaders as making an impact. But then I would also be, I'd be completely amiss by not calling out my, Thomas, because, for anyone who's immigrated listening to the call, anyone who's immigrated will tell you it's no easy feat. A lot of people, a lot of people have an opinion on immigration but it's incredibly emotionally draining. It's incredibly hard and I look at how my wife deals with that. With any transition with a smile it makes me feel less of a human being for the most part, because, I'm always stressed about how people are not attentive, or how people are not taking something serious. And my wife always smiles. And for the most part, Thomas, I want to say, listen, let's, let's push this. But she always says, Warren let's treat them a little bit with a little bit more kindness and maybe we'll get a quicker result. And for the most part, it's true. Maybe not all the time, but I would say that those are the three people that have made an imprint in in, in my life, Thomas, or making an impact. But There are many more people that are missing, but I think if I had to quote on those three examples, that's what I would leave it at. That's, that's great. Man, you almost pulled out a few tears of me when you talk about your dad there, Warren. I really lost my dad relatively recently. Yeah. But anyways, I think we may have just lost Tomas. And that's a tough thing to follow. Very heavy quite frankly, heavy heavy question. And I'm quite moved as well, frankly, Warren, and it's interesting because, one of, one of my leaders in my career is in the audience, Ravi is one of those leaders for me who I can always go to and I always know that we'll be there and leads with that type of kindness and trust model and the way you were describing that was also quite moving from a professional standpoint for me curious to, you talked a lot about your fundamental core of who you are as a human being. And, I have actually a lot of parallels with you. I was a history major, wanted to go to law school, ended up in cyber and it did not go into law because I loved it so much. One of the things that I find really interesting in the types of companies that I've worked in and with the people that I've worked with is that there, there can be a fundamental choice that a person can make to want to lead that way. But it sounds like you've been able to accomplish that and not only accomplish that, but do so in a very large organization and global organization. So curious about what some of the practical steps that you take to be able to Bring that level of humanity to your leadership style. And as you mold the next generation of leaders within a large organization like you are today. Katie, what a beautiful question. Because it's fundamentally what drives me most days because Katie, you're right. It's it's really difficult. In a large organization, to, to measure the impact that you're making on a daily basis, right? Sometimes, you only see that impact in years. And I smile often because I've worked on some of the most transformative projects. And I'll just I'll use an example, but then come back to your question. But we started. Both cloud security and OT security as two practices or two principles in the cyber security domain. And I could tell you, for the most part, the people in the large organization were very We're very headstrong on not going down that route. And last year, as late as last year, we gave an award to a company because we saw the innovation and the company a year later was acquired. And sometimes, you'd say, Oh, we should have made that decision to invest in that company. But sometimes, you don't get, you don't get the support. What do I do? I treat everybody and this may sound cliche and this may sound, Oh, Warren, you're just saying it because, you're on a live chat, but I try and treat everybody with respect, right? Because I know how precious time is and I know how precious life is. So I try and treat everybody with respect, but to show you how that plays itself out in practice Katie, we were recently in Bangkok. Okay. And it was a crazy schedule. We were, we had flown to Singapore, we had meetings in Singapore and then we flew to Bangkok and we had meetings in Bangkok and then we were flying back to Singapore and in flying to Australia or in the space of a week. And for those of you who travel on business and for those of you who travel. And living in a hotel, it's not easy. And the one thing I do try and do is treat people with a little bit of kindness because it dictates the service that you will get, not just at that time, in times to come. And I can remember just cause it's fresh in my mind. I remember as I was checking out and waiting for our ride to our waiting for our Uber to, to the airport. The lady who checked me in saw us standing, to leave and she walked up to me to say, are you leaving already? And I said, yes, I'm leaving. She said, nice to have you here. And, I hope you come back soon. But so that's a little bit more of Thai. But I guess my colleague who happened to be from Europe. Didn't understand. And he was like, Warren, wherever you go, you make an impact or you build relationships, you make friends and that's true, Katie. That's what I do. That's my DNA. And I joke about it. I say I say it's because I'm stupid and I don't know as much as the other person, so that's why I'm a little bit more kind. But for the most part, it's true because. Because I want to learn, and I want to grow, and I want to be better, and I feel like that if I'm a little bit more kind, if I'm a little bit more humble, then maybe I will learn, and maybe the person will, the person will be a little bit more accommodating to my stupidity, and be more forgiving to my stupidity, and I'll tell you, there's, there's not many people Who won't give me time today, Katie in the industry and a lot of my founders a lot of the founders that we work with, they always say how do you know so many people? I say, because I, because I'm a poor guy and I'm a stupid guy and I, the one thing I do want to have the most is I want to have friends because I think I can learn and I know that makes, that's quite silly and and sometimes funny. But I believe in that. I believe that I want to treat people with kindness and with respect in this large organization, because I want to make them feel a certain way so that they are responsive. They take me seriously and they don't feel like. They have to do something because they are a colleague or the employee, but they want to do something because it's the right thing to do. I appreciate that. And that's, I'm glad you brought it home at the end, because I think that's the interesting thing that you were talking about in terms of corporate culture and how do you instill that type of attitude within corporate culture? If I am hearing you correctly, I just want to make sure I am hearing you correctly. The guidance you would give is that you have to do that one winning hearts and minds one at a time. An individual interaction. 100%. 100%. Small things, Katie, remembering someone's name, right? And it's not Kate. It's Katie, right? It's Katie for a reason, because that's that's when you were given the name. So I'd say it's so small things. And I always ask people, if I can't Transcribed Annunciate their name, I will always ask them, am I saying your name correctly? And I remember people's names because it's as an immigrant I'll tell you it's it's hard to enunciate your name and have your name spoken back You know, whenever I get into a starbucks, I have a new name, right? But it's because and I think am I really saying my name wrong? But it's because people not really listening right or maybe we're just enunciating us ourselves incorrectly and now I always Say Josh, because that's my son's name and all my receipts, people must be looking at who's Josh. That's always going out. Cause it's not, cause this is Warren's expense claim. So it's a little bit of a human, hopefully funny to everybody else. So are you saying so Josh is just that much easier for people? That's what I that's what it looks like. That's what it seems a lot easier than warren, right? I love that now we know aka josh I love it a little we uncovered a little bit of mystery tonight so yeah, with that I know russell had a question. Ready So let me go ahead and give the mic over to russell. Thank you so much warren. Thanks katie warren What an amazing i've been taking notes and just Thinking about the things that you said, and I have to say, I really admire and respect the value that you talked about of respect, treating everyone with respect. I think it's a it's an easy thing to say, it's a hard thing to do, and when people do it, such as you and the examples that you gave, we notice it, it makes an impact, and it stands out. Thumbs up. Kudos. And I really appreciate that. So one of the things you talked about, you said earlier that you're a closet entrepreneur, certainly helping other people to do and be successful, and maybe avoid failure in their respective business. What are some, maybe, Common patterns that you see for those who are successful, the entrepreneurs that seem like they get it. They're, I don't know if they're driven or they have certain, formulas that they follow or coaching that you give to them or NTT gives to them. What are you able to look at and, or maybe observe and just predict their success. And are there any attributes that you see when that happens? Absolutely. Russell amazing question, right? I. When we started this journey, Russell, we came up with three eyes, right? And the three eyes, it's amazing how some of those eyes are being used today, right? Just for us as looking for technology. That would, Compliment what we do and or help solve a problem and the three eyes. The first I was around, something that we would incubate, right? Because it's it folds a gap, but we know how hard it would be to deliver. But we would choose the team that were committed to the problem that we were trying to solve. And that's why we would incubate it. But we knew they didn't have the experience. But we, that's why we were incubating it. The second I was around innovation, we felt like the team, had experience, the team had enough support and they were able to set up a pilot in a way. And execute with professionalism. So we would talk about innovation and we would, we would we share, we share that this is something we innovating with. And there are many stories, Russell, we can share more examples, post this call. And the last I is around invest, because We believe that it's a problem. It solves a problem. We believe that the team are committed and they've got the resource to solve the problem. And we will make an investment because we believe that the team are committed. To solving that problem for the long haul, right? But the common thread that you ask for, drive and passion are two things you can see visibly, right? The one thing that is a challenge for us is listening skills and we and you can see that, in the first meeting. How attentively are they listening? Are they listening with purpose or, are they just, are they going through gear series of tasks that they need to do as a startup, to meet as many customers that it can go back in? Because this is true, right? But also we were not the most experienced and we're not a, we're not a venture capital organization. So when we started this journey we also worked with. I don't want to, I don't want to call them a studio. But they were a platform where, they helped the founder who had a great idea, but lacked experience through a series of stages that they would take them from a product that, was just an idea on paper to a, an MVP to, to a first client. But again, key to that were those two tenants, one, the ability and passion. So the drive and passion, but to the willingness to take feedback, because it's not easy, right? It's not easy. We were all in school. And for the most part, we all, are part of teams some, somehow, and, someone's giving advice, after you've put a lot of effort in, it's hard to take the advice and, going, change it. But I remember a con a conversation. With a with a, an investor to a founder and he asked the question and this person's become, very close to me personally. And he asked the, he asked the founder, the investor asked the founder, the question, and I thought to myself, if that was me being asked the question. I don't think I ever would have showed up again, right? But the resilience of this founder, because he believed in the problem and because he believed that he had the solution to the problem, that no matter what question was being asked, he was not going to waver. With, anxiety or frustration or, or doubt, but he was steady on his feet with the way he answered because he believed in the problem. And you could see that visually. And this guy is a very near dear friend of mine today. I can call him at seven o'clock in the morning or, eight o'clock on a Sunday evening, but he knows because I. I was committed to back him because of that single premise, right? Of how resilient he was. So I'd say those are the key attributes, Russell. And through experience, you see it as well, right? I don't want to be rude, but everyone wants to be an entrepreneur. But it's difficult, it's it's incredibly Difficult to be an entrepreneur and it takes a significant amount of bravery and belief in yourself. Some, some people may say it's ego. And I don't know if it's ego. I just think it's, I spent a lot of time with these founders and a lot of them have fear, Katie, that, they can't work in big companies. So they'd much rather work in a small company, have a startup. But I would say. Work as part of a core team, trust the ecosystem and share transparently because, the world changes on a daily basis. I'll share a story, Russell, when I speak to analysts, they talk about, they still talk about SMBs, right? And I smile to myself because I think to myself you're asking a question that was written maybe 20 years ago. And SMB was an Airbnb, right? 10 years ago, there were probably 40, 50 people, and a platform now look at who they are today. And that's much the same with any one of these SaaS type companies, right? So we have to be open to collaboration. We have to be. So considerate to the people in the room that we're collaborating with that, a force of five or six people together can deliver a better outcome than three. Or two, or one, right? So that's my experience, Russell. Wow, Warren, I'm glad I asked. It's like you conducted a master class for us on entrepreneur, what it means, lessons learned, and things of that nature. I can't thank you enough. Appreciate that so much. And at this time, I'd like to go over to my good friend, Vijay. Vijay, you got some questions? Thank you, Russell. Warren, it's been a delight hearing you on various topics, and especially your journey. One of the things that you touched about early was on boards, we see that you're a board advisor, board member clearly there's been some progress in that space with board members trying to, one, get a better understanding on the true cyber response to these days at the same time, I guess it's relatively common for many security practitioners or leaders to articulate the story or challenges to the board, especially when, you have just a few minutes to present it, right? So in your experience, especially being in three different continents, what have you observed in the board space regarding cybersecurity and any tips? For the audience. I'm not sure if the questions are getting harder or the questions are getting or the questions are getting better of the questions or if this is just a normal script, Katie but, so let me say this, right? So five continents we I work across, across the world, 58 countries, and I would say the first thing is culture, Vijay. Thank you. Yeah, also, I would say, depending on the organization, it's the demographic in the boardroom, right? And all those play a big part of the feedback, the questions or the amount of time being taken to consider what's being presented. I will tell you this. As an organizer, as an individual that has visibility, to so many different clients or so many different parts of the world, I'd say these. There's now more a concerted effort to have to understand cyber singular. And second to understand the propensity. for breach and not just understanding the propensity for breach, understanding the readiness to take action should there be an event. And I see a lot more of that right today. And if you asked, was it any worse? Was it any better? In the past today, is it any worse in the past? Is it any better? I would say to you, there's a gradual shift. Of maturity and I think that I think the amount of communication that's being done, in the media because these risks are, now impact life. And it's not just about the viability of a business. Any longer and it's not just about the brand reputation. I think those were all key Problems and key results which for the most part people, people forgot about it, right? It would be in one board meeting, you know They wouldn't come back and ask but now I will tell in every seesaw conversation that I am having or any Client conversation is looking for feedback. The two key things are is that going to happen to us? And what certainty or what precautions are we taking that does not happen to us? And pick that pick the name, right? Pick the name of event. Were recently in, in, in a meeting with CISOs who happened to be in critical infrastructure and As I said to you, I said earlier on the call, right? I can remember being in meetings, being in boardrooms, presenting, what happens if you have, a machine that's on a manufacturing plant that is impacted and, hurt somebody, right? I can remember going to an energy plantation where they got, big signs that said zero fatalities today, right? How many of the board members went there? Guaranteed that was being presented, right? You'd walk in, you don't walk into a manufacturing plant today and say, zero fatalities, but absolutely there are lines on floors in a assembly plant where, these forklifts or these machines need to go. And they are reporting on some of the resilience metrics, right? Of the infrastructure and questions are being asked, right? Around. These, what are these third party risks, what is our sustainability and three, if this happens to us, how quickly do we get back online? That's a great response. Hey, if I might, if you don't mind me quickly, just I'm pretty intrigued on your comparison between the manufacturing space and cyber, if I could, just add one really quick. Piggybacking question. Any other analogies in that space where we could reuse some of the reporting and benefits that we've seen in manufacturing over the past few decades, like the fatality point that you mentioned in cyber? Yeah, 100%. I'll tell you again, There's this, there's all this, there's all this hype today right around, whether it's a I or not, right? And again, for me it's really, it's intriguing because sitting on this side of the table it's how do you use it? And, what's the risk? With it being used, right? And I'll say to you the two things that I touched on earlier around efficiency. Again, if we get back to, I don't know all the industries that the panelists are on, but if we have a look at, just call it healthcare, right? And for anybody who's had anybody go to a hospital for something. For some kind of surgery, right? Every single, and I only know this because people have told me and we do a lot of work helping organizations, managed inventory but do you have the right instruments? Are the, have the instruments been cleaned? How many instruments are on site to perform this particular task? And that goes the same with all the assets today. In our inventory, right? What are the assets? What are the tools being used? What is the state of those tools? We spoke about the hospital and these are the three tools that need to be used and they were cleaned at this time and they sterile and you can go and perform the surgery, right? This is real. That's much the same. We're making a transaction today. Is the system vulnerable? We're using the system to make this transaction. What happens if that system was vulnerable? But the problem in that world is who's the owner? And we can tie in that surgery, that instrument to a group of individuals who have responsibility to it. We can do the same today, in, call it mainstream I. T. But the reality is how many people want to take that? Because it's is it a mundane task? Is it not cool? Is it not sexy? And those are the there are tools available that will help you not only tie the asset owner to the risk, but the time being taken to remediate that, right? Because in a surgery, you. You book the surgery at eight o'clock in the morning. It's going to happen, right? Love it. Love it. No, this is a super enlightening. Stephen, my friend, good to see you at all over to you. Thank you, E. J. Warren, thank you so much for all that you shared. Very happy you've been able to hit some of your goals like, helping people out and living abroad. I think that's real cool that you're able to check some of those things off. As I was listening to you, look, I personally, I don't find it odd at all that you wanted to be a lawyer and end up in cyber because for me, that was the exact path I took to. I was in high school when I realized I wanted to be a lawyer, but this hacking thing at the time is what we called it was attracting me to. I remember thinking in my high school because we had already had metal detectives like pretty early on, and I remember thinking, why are we being treated as criminals just because we're trying to get an education? And, I mind you at this time, Madiba was being elected on the other side of the world. That was not a small thing in my community. Like we understood, what that really meant. And so even though I knew statistically that growing up in one of the most dangerous cities in the U. S. I was supposed to be dead or in jail by 25. There was still hope, right? Seeing Madiba come into office, seeing everything that he had to go through and still give the South African people hope, that, of course, the hope sprang eternal everywhere, especially here. And so for me, that need to protect that you talked about. I felt that really coming out of the neighborhood that I came out of and, and it's a large part of what keeps me in cybersecurity. And it also feeds my own personal activism for human rights, right? Like Madiba and other have taught us. So obviously protecting people with cybersecurity is a little different than saying passing legislation to prevent abuse of a population, for an example, does that desire that you had that passion to, to help, still carry with you outside of cyber security? And if so, would you mind sharing what that passion is? So Steven, we could be friends for life, right? There's so many there's so many beautiful stories that I have about life in South Africa and the sheer relentless passion. For, for change and the premise of hope that hope things can be better. And I'll tell you, I'll tell everybody things are not better, right? Things are not better in South Africa. And it breaks my heart personally, because I would go back tomorrow. And. And live with load shedding. And my, my, my wife may not agree that I would do that, but I think I would, because, there's so much that we can do, Steven, because we, because I've seen better, right? I've seen systems that, that work and I've seen processes that. Yes, there may be gain for a small minority as in large gain and small gain, for the majority but at least there's gain, right? And I'm talking about infrastructure. I'm talking about schools. I'm talking about computers. I'll share a story and it's quite a, quite an emotional story for me personally, because, I never even understood what, what this term private school meant Stephen until I was in university and I and then I didn't heard from some people in the class Oh, they went to this private school and I didn't know what it was I didn't know what I didn't understand it and then I went to australia and I heard there were three types of schooling systems, right? And you had a choice, you had a choice Anybody had a choice you're not gonna pay you're not gonna pay that much more, right? But you had a choice your parents had a choice you may have had to drive or get on public transport, but you had the choice whether you go to public school or Catholic school or private school. And the system worked in such a way that the private school, if you couldn't afford it, there was endowments, right? And there would, people would, with more money would be a lot, it would be paying more so that people who didn't have money could go to the school. So there was choice. One of the things that. So what we are doing as friends and a group of us, because a group of us happened to live abroad is that the school that we went to the primary school, I think they call it in, in America, elementary school. Not only computer infrastructure, but we've provided internet infrastructure, and our goal is to maintain that, for as long as we can do it until, the schools get to a level where they understand the value. of that equipment and they understand the value of that kind of learning because, for the most part when COVID happened and those kids had to stay at home, there was no learning. There was no learning. Yeah, in America, we're still talking about people going to McDonald's where there was no infrastructure and they would get online. There was no learning. Never happened. But we were we have been able through some partners ships to, to continue that and provided Stephen, I absolutely my wife thinks I'm crazy. I probably am. But but in, in the Americas, I absolutely love just the school systems and how cool it is. So I dedicate a lot of my time when I can is to spend time in the schools the mostly the high schools but sharing a little bit about Cyber and the career opportunity because we talk about the lack of people and the lack of skill available, but nobody's talking to kids about it, right? My kids are lucky. My both my boys are lucky. They don't want to do cyber, but they at least they're lucky because they know that I talk about it and I understand the threats and I share some of these threats with them. So I'm also doing that, Stephen. Don't do enough of it. And. Just blame time, that's a it's a poor excuse, but that's what I'm trying to do, Stephen, and I'd love, as we I'd love to have a network of people. I will. I'll tell you the one thing that we also doing as a group of individuals is we've created a community that is of both woman and male in cyber that sit. As a group of individuals to try and be more inclusive to encourage people who are looking for employment, friends and family to give them an opportunity or to share opportunities with them because they still don't know about these opportunities. Because they, nobody's talking to them about cyber and some of us got into cyber, especially me talking about, talk about lucky got into it because, I knew some people who were cyber experts, enjoyed the conversation, spent more and more time with given an opportunity, to test myself and now consider myself and a cyber individual. So those are the things that I'm doing. Not nearly enough. Hope to do more. Thank you, Warren. Really appreciate the feedback there. I think we could definitely talk about this a lot more, especially offline. Yeah, look, it never feels like there's enough time to truly give back, especially when you look at where each of us has come in life that we've gotten to this place in life, right? It feels like there's so many people to thank. And that's one of the things that I've always told people, like, when you really look at the truly wealthy people in the world, the one thing that they truly have in common is that they've been able to essentially use that wealth to buy time. So that's the goal. Get that time to give back. Warren. Oh, I agree. For see you and I have some more conversations on this go forward, but really appreciate that. And Tomas, I will hand it back to you. Wow. What a great conversation. Hopefully everybody can hear me. Okay. What a great conversation so far, Warren. So just a very quick room reset. If you've just joined us or you've been on for a while and you do have a question that you do want to raise to Warren, feel free to raise your hand. We'll bring you up on stage and you can ask your question. And. In the meantime, Warren, I do have a, oh, hang on. We got someone wanting to come up on stage. It should be fun. Oh, we've got, Warren, you got, you've got a an entourage coming up now. Hang on. Let's get folks up. All right. Ravi, I did see you first, so I'll pass it over to you. Anything you want to ask Warren? And thanks for joining us. Oh. Ravi, are you with us? You're coming a little choppy. I'll come back to you, Ravi. I'll give you a moment to maybe a connection to settle. Ty, I'll go over to you. Anything you want to ask Warren? Thanks for joining us this evening. Oh, you're welcome. Hi Warren. Ty, nice to hear from you again, my friend. No hard questions. No, I wouldn't miss it for the world. So first of all, thank you for, to the hosts Russell Tomas and Steven Robbie, and I, I know I'm missing somebody, Katie for hosting Warren. So as soon as I saw the. The LinkedIn ping. I'm like, I can't miss this for the world. So Warren it's great to hear your story in a little bit more detail. I'm really impressed by your humble beginnings. And I'm impressed about what you're doing now and what you're looking to do in the future. So thank you. Thank you. Thank you. So as a double immigrant myself, having immigrated from Nigeria to the UK at 21 and the UK to the US at 31 and spending most of my adult life, actually all my adult life outside of where I was born and raised in Nigeria I can I can relate a lot to your story. One of the things I always tell people is, Being an immigrant is tough. Being a double immigrant is crazy. So if you were to sum up your experience, especially your professional journey and your family journey as a double immigrant, from South Africa, Dover and South Africa to Australia to the U. S. And I think I may be missing one or the U. Immigration you did, but I know you've done at least two, like principles that you think has helped you navigate that journey. In my case, I call it prayer, persistence, perseverance. Do you have any three maybe letters like that to share with the audience? Yes, absolutely. And thank you for the question, Tay. Nice to hear your voice again and look forward to continue to collaborate. I'd say not only patience, right? But I'll share a small story. Because I know Robbie is also an immigrant. But but it's and BJ, I'm going to assume you also are an immigrant because I can hear a little bit of an accent. I, it's extremely difficult, right? And there are so many, the unconscious bias is so different. And at a different level than anything else. Not just around, who you are as a sex or who you are as a race. But the unconscious bias, as I said to all of you, in terms of dialect where are you from? And for the most part, people make the assumption and you've got to have patience, right? You've got to have patience because. They are inquisitive and you could jump to conclusions that they are making, they are making a stereotype. So I'd say for the most part, patience, right? Have patience because they too are learning regardless of the place that you're immigrating to, they are learning about you, much about you as you are learning about them. The second. Acronym, second letter, second second word I'd say is resilience. There are many, there have been many a night where, we would say, What are we doing? Because it's so much easier. And I'll tell you I've lived South Africa now close to 20 years. And we had some family visit us over Christmas and, when they left my wife and I said to each other, one, we are so different as in we are different because we, we've been out of the country for 20 years and they are so different. But we also said we miss it. We miss family so much. So resilience and to know that you are you're working and you are, you, your purpose is to create a better life for those that you brought into this world, right? And it's not easy. It's not easy for the most part. It's not easy because you think like, why am I doing it? And, when they, my, my sons are, they are their own men and they, they have great minds. They are intelligent boys just like their mother and, they want to do what they want to do whether it's, whether it relates to sport or curriculum and I try and encourage them to be broad minded, right? And, try this sport. Sometimes they don't. So you also, you have an expectation that they now need to do what you want them to do because you make him the sacrifice. And I think that resilience is key. is key. The last letter and word I would say is kindness. Because, with kindness brings so much opportunity. Some of my best friends and I can't tell you, Best friends or where I now live. And I just recently was in Australia and I said to a friend who I worked with and has become a great friend that, Hey, I'm coming to, I'm coming to Australia. I don't have much time. I'd love to see you. And the fact that he went out of his way. But because he knew deep down that, it was in the spirit of kindness that I was letting him know and, we were there for each other when we were living in Australia, but he made time to come in to spend with me and was great. So be kind if you're kind, you'll make deep, lasting friends. But if you just have an expectation of people to, Accept you, then I guess, you're not going to build that relationship for the longterm. That, that's what I would say, Tay. But, I'd summarize it by saying, you, if you're doing it with a spouse just be there for the spouse, because it's I did it with my wife and she did most of the work, right? I was just along for the ride. Literally, she did everything for all three, three relocations. And we did. Arranging movers, making sure the schools, arranging doctors, arranging dentists she did it all. And I just have to be incredibly grateful that I had such a great supporter. Awesome. Sage Watts from Triple Immigrant. I, Very much. I appreciate that. Warren. Thank you. Thanks for joining us. Joining the conversation this evening. Robbie. You with us? Yeah, sure. I'm hopefully you can hear me now. Yep. Loud and clear. Go for Robbie. Awesome. Hey, listen, I feel really privileged that Warren, you're taking time out of such a busy day and more importantly, and equally important, the moderators were all very busy people creating this community. So one, thank you all. And then two, I had an observation and a question for you. The observation is, As I've gotten to know you, you talk about being kind, you talk about being humble, and what I really have found is, someone with your experience and your intelligence and the job you do whenever you and I spend time and I see you spend time with other people, you show a real curiosity, a real care when you speak to them and that's amazing. So when I find that people who are smart, who I respect and are taking the real intellectual curiosity, And what I do and who I am that's very humbling for me. And it's a real honor. So I want to just thank you for that true friendship. And then my question is really about NTT. So you, thank you for giving entrepreneurs accolades. We'll take them, but I got to tell you, after being acquired into massive organizations like Cisco and McAfee I am always admiring of large companies like an NTT. You remember that book, that famous book, elephants can dance. So what's some wisdom you've learned? Cause I've seen you and just in the period of time I've known you get a lot of important things done in NTT. What motivates is it, they see economic opportunity, they see innovation opportunity, you're just wonderfully persuasive. Give us a masterclass on how you make NTT dance in the innovation world. Yeah. So I think, I, for those of you who don't know NTT it's just a quick summary. They are one of the world's largest telecommunications companies still largely Japanese owned just an incredibly innovative organization at the core. So that's not the hard job, probably, because they are innovative, right? And they have to be innovative because, the shareholder, as well as, the, some of the largest customers are, Japanese. And there's a lot of, if you understand the history of Japan and you understand the culture of Japan, you'll get a sense of, the, What they call the dynamic loop which is, using technology to give back to society in the spirit and through the spirit of innovation. But to answer your question, one is one. It's the focus Robbie? It's focus on focus and alignment to the big goals. So what are the goals of the organization and how do we ensure or how do we demonstrate or showcase congruency? With those goals and being mindful that we have commitments, to shareholders and we have commitments to clients and we have commitments to our people because we had a large organization. So being respectful that, you can't do everything and being respectful that, you have to have that relentless focus. And sometimes it's hard, Ravi, because, the decisions, not made today, there'll be made in 30 days time or 60 days time. And, that's not the timeline of a startup, for the most part, but I'd say. You just have to understand what the system is and what the process is and be respectful of that system and process. Lucky because I've been here for so long and I know a lot of people And I think maybe that gives me an advantage that I, I know who to speak to where someone new coming in, may take them a little bit longer to build a relationship before they, but I can, I can get three people on a call tomorrow. And people always say, Robbie, it makes me smile, Oh, give us a week and we'll get a meeting like, a week we won't be here. But if you have respect and you have a relationship and people understand that you are not, not going to Abuse the time or I'm not going to misuse the time, they will absolutely take the time to get on the call. And I see it daily, right? Executives senior managers, people will make the time because they understand that there's intent and positive intent. Thanks, Robbie. That's awesome. Thank you. Thanks, Robbie. Thanks for joining the conversation. Great question. Hey, Nate, thanks for joining us this evening. Anything you want to ask Warren? Yeah, thanks for team. Yep. Warren really appreciate your openness and sharing with this forum this evening you had me chuckling a little bit because my wife's from johannesburg And I don't think she'd welcome load shedding back into her life either I can't help but to admire the humility and authenticity that you've demonstrated this evening and really just sharing Straight from the heart. I got a little bit of a softer question, but one that's been on my mind, hearing you this evening throughout the last hour and change. What's going on in the industry right now? That's got you most excited, whether it's, emerging thought or new challenges that we're facing or just general chatter that it's really got you excited and in the current ongoings within cyber and information security, Nate. First and foremost, Listen, it's not easy to marry a South African. The fact that you got that fact that you got that right. Let me say, big props to you, right? Second, second, it can't be easy to be married to a South African. So big props to you. And third, maybe just say, how's it to her? From me. When you when you next talk to her. I think she'll chuckle, right? Will do. Nate, I think I've said it to you to, to all of you earlier. I'm not the smartest guy but the one thing I am is the mo as I'm incredibly attentive and for the first time, Nate, for the first time I think I, I've been saying it maybe for the last 12 months now, but. People are taking vulnerabilities seriously, right? And and I know it's hard. I know this is the, it's one of the hardest, the most mundane tasks because there's just so many, right? But I think for the first time I can see active and I can see sheer desire. To have better visibility and control of the vulnerabilities within the estate, right? That's the one thing that's got me. That's got me excited. The second one that's got me, more excited than and it's and it's a tussle between vulnerability is people recognize that identity not only is it complex, but identity is the ability to protect everything, right? And I think we, I think we've got lost and I think, the industry has made it incredibly complex in terms of the amount that you have to have in place because it's not easy. Nate I have nothing but admiration for all of you have cyber security delivery roles. And responsible for an enterprise because it's not easy because you have to have skill and you have to have expertise on call to deliver, but to have an identity platform that not only scales across legacy and new emerging SAS applications is what I see as the future. And again, I don't want, I don't want to get on the AI bandwagon or, be, want you to think that I'm on an AI bandwagon, share stories. My wife's a teacher and and I'm incredibly proud of my wife as a teacher because I look at the amount of work that they do on a daily basis to, to educate our kids. And I look at the way AI is being used today for teachers. Thomas, Nate, Katie, but just look at how effectively it's being used to help the teachers, one, communicate across cultural divide. To communicate tone and three communicate intent. It's just amazing because they don't have time. These teachers, right? My wife starts a typical day is at school at 7 a. m. And And she's out of school. Typical day at five and out of school. But she still has to work because she has to communicate. If there's an event, if there's an incident with a student, she has to communicate that evening, and sometimes, the district that we part of, there's parents who are also at work, parents who don't speak English as a first language, but they're using this AI. Platform to communicate and it's made life a little bit easier for them, but we have to make sure it's secure and we have to make sure that it's not being abused. So those are the three things I would say in no particular order of things that excite me. But Nate, I'm grateful around vulnerability because it's the one thing that kind of bemused me that just because it just did right and then identity, I think, we finally have some good leaders in the world who are taking this seriously and are putting lots of effort behind it to make it easier, smarter and better. And then I think we've got to we've got to use AI to our advantage. I love that so much. Thanks, Warren. Really appreciate it. Thank you, Nate. As always, really appreciate when you join us and your questions on coming up on the stage. So listen, Warren, I have a question for you that may seem a little out there, but we've covered a lot of ground tonight. And your story is, it's like you've lived three lives. Having lived on three continents traveled to five I just couldn't, can't help, but wonder. If you had the attention of the entire world for five minutes, what would you say in those five minutes? Katie hopefully we have an opportunity to meet so I can give you a hug. Because it because it sounds like you're in my mind. And it sounds like you clearly are. Through Thomas have some kind of malware on my in my brain because that's what I that's what I say to my wife, most days, right? Because I watched the news. Katie, I watched the news. Unfortunately, maybe I shouldn't. And, and my heart is sore With all this going on, at home, abroad, and I'm and I'm really torn as a human being. I mean that, do I lose sleep over it? I'm not losing sleep at the moment. So I'm a little bit happy, but I know real life stories of friends and family, when, I'll just start, I'll start by sharing, when the war started in the Ukraine, one of my closest friend his wife is from the Ukraine, he happened to be living in Ukraine in Kiev and the story is to hear how him and his two year old son and his wife had to leave. Unfortunately, he could leave because he's South African, right? But they had to leave and what they saw on the way, leaving to get to Poland was just from a movie, right? And that's much the same with what's going on in the Middle East. So if I had to stand on stage because I often think about it, Katie, do I go back to South Africa and do I go into politics? Do I do that? Do I really do that? Because I, because if you follow South Africa, Nate will tell you if you follow South Africa, this year is literally make or break for the for the country. It's literally make or break for the country. We will either go so, so far back or we will, we'll have a good opportunity to go forward. Do I go back? So if I was on stage talking for five minutes, I would talk a little bit more about love. I talk a little bit more about tolerance. I talk a little bit more about the fact that history, while it must navigate and guide our decisions for the future, it can't be the only source of way forward, right? Because some of the history is not accurate. And some of the history, needs to be questioned. And some of the history, needs to be given or articulated from a different purview. Because it's not it's not all, it's not all fact, right? And we need, we really need to consider being open to a different world, right? One where we all can be. equal, one where we all are given an opportunity to thrive and one where we are all given an opportunity to be, to have free speech and not be judged by it. Because I think that's, I think that's what our, our Achilles heel is, right? We all say that we open to we, we open to, a different, purview or different perspective, but we have such a deep unconscious bias that, we don't, we talk about love and we talk about religion and we talk about, the fact that we got to, serve, but people are being, people treat others with disrespect, in the time of, time of significance. So I don't know Katie, if that's really gonna help the world, but I would plead I would plead with everybody just to be a little bit more loving because a hug, Katie is a lot more, inviting than someone chastising you. I can promise you this, Warren. The next time I see you or actually the first time I meet you in person, I have a hug ready for you. Thank you. And I appreciate the invitation. And actually we have another person has just joined the stage as well. So now do you have a question for Warren? Thank you, Katie. Hi, Warren. I did miss majority of the session. I was actually in a session on how to deepen love based on stuff that I'm going through right now. But from everything I've heard so far, it just sounds That your resilience of course, I've heard of you, but like your resilience is just fantastic, right? Like it's just something so beautiful and I wanted to ask you something based on something you said about A. I. And then what you just said right now about a different world. So I've been feeling that yes, there's love at a different definition for what it means to be more human. And then there's also discernment and awareness. And I think we're really all being called right now at the macro, micro level to unveil deception. So do you feel that with AI being artificial intelligence and my background is in AI, right? In analytics and AI I find that sometimes people look at AI as yes, it's going to make us more effective and all these things. But I also find that, especially for students. Nurturing what makes them creatively unique through their senses and their emotions is going to be their unique sort of power and their force, their life signature because AI will be able to help in specific ways but it will also make us all standardized in how we express and it's also easily stolen. Or taken, right? If we want to talk about give and take a reciprocity. Knowing that we want to create a life and a world where things are derivative and shared and everything is collective again, because I think this was existent in humanity at one point. How do you, I really want to understand how you feel about creativity as a human innate experience and then AI as bolstering or if it's oppositional to it. Thank you. Yeah. S sauna just what a difficult question to, to be authentic answering. Because there's no right answer but it's such an amazing question. Because this, because you are Right. And I think I, being the father of two amazing human beings. And I look at how authentic they both are. But also so authentic that they can be awkward. One awkward because he's more a conservative young man and the other one awkward because he's such an outgoing, such an confident young man. But I think there's an opportunity personally in, in AI To, to push the boundaries of creativity for them, because if I use the conservative kid for a minute, he's a he's a pre med kid and. And I'm hoping that AI will encourage him or help him to get more information because, he wants to, he wants to help people and I'm hoping he understands disease and he understands loss. He wants. I'm hoping that it will help him. Someone who's conservative, right? He's not necessarily going to go and, have a conversation with 10 people, but maybe a I will help him ask a few questions and empower. He's thought process. For the younger chap, maybe not so much, right? Because I can only imagine the kind of stories that he will be telling or the kind of creativity he'll be coming up with AI. So I'd say it's going to serve two purposes, Sana. That's my opinion, and I know that may sound like a cop out but it's just, Me being vulnerable and honest. I don't see it as a cop out at all. Thank you for being so humble and allowing me to say that it's not. I do, what I saw and what you just shared, one, thank you for the intimacy of that and the visibility into the humans that you're helping nurture and are custodian for, you and your wife. But also though, what was really clear to me in that was that is that if in terms of creating a newer world, it's always going to go from the inner to the outer if whatever we see is the outer and you speaking at the level of their personality. And how would a specific individual that you know intimately then use it? It was really beautiful because that's where I think it'll replicate from, right? At a mass level. Thank you. No, pleasure. Warren, if I could jump in with a really quick one, right? You spoke about being a triple immigrant and you also spoke about your kids. How successful have you been in instilling resiliency, like what you have, To your kids, VJ. That's I would say it's a tough, it's a tough question to answer without feeling awkward. Because it, it's, as an immigrant, I will tell you when we had moved, when we had moved to the U. S. back to the U. S. from Australia VJ, I can remember being in a conversation with friends and, people had asked my asked my oldest son, are you happy to be back? Are you happy to be back in the USA? And he said, yes, I'm very happy to be back in the USA. And. And they said to him, why are you happy to be back in the USA? And he said, because everything's cheaper, right? Listen he's a young chap. He couldn't, it wasn't a day old. He wasn't the day all over, over 12. But he said, everything's cheaper. So guess who he got that from, Vijay? He got that from his mom and dad, right? Because the reality is things are cheaper in the U. S. compared to Australia. But if I ask, if I answer the question a little differently, I'm being completely vulnerable. I think we've made them a little bit too resilient, Vijay. And because they're young men they kids and they need to also be a little bit dependent sauna because they need to understand what love is Katie and a and they need to be a little bit weak, right? Because they need it, they need to have their heart broken. They need to feel that what that sounds like, but. I'll share an interaction with you which shares how resilience can be negative, not only to the 12 year old, who's now a lot older, who said things are cheaper, but my youngest son, I told you, I had some family that were over here visiting from South Africa and my mother went into the supermarket With them and they were, she was asking, do you want something? Do you need something? And she was getting a few things for my son's cousins. And my son said, no, that's okay. I'll pay for myself. And I reflected on that for a minute. Yes, his grandmother. Right and for the most part he's lived away from his grandmother, right? So he doesn't understand that interaction where his other cousins have lived with his grandmother, you know with their grandmother and you know Their grandmother buys them things and my son said no, don't worry. I've got it. I'll pay for myself So is that resilience DJ is that or is that is he too? Is he too resilient? Should he be a little bit more inviting for someone to, to buy him something or his grandmother to show him a bit of affection by purchasing something. I don't know. So I think maybe a little bit too resilient VJ, I'll share another story. Because Thomas will tell you, Steven will probably tell you, Vijay, you probably know the story. We all have, there's examples of an older sibling, helping us out or picking us up. My, my oldest son was. Nine years old and he was picking his younger brother up from school Taking him to after school care Making sure that he was checked in for after school care and that he then went off and did extramural mathematics, right? so So is that resilience vj? I don't think I should have made them so resilient right because that's a lot of responsibility for a nine year old. I don't think I was that responsible when I was nine definitely I don't even think i'm that responsible now so I don't know if that's resilience. But I would say, if I had to deconstruct resilience on three levels, one, their ability to be an immigrant, I'd say, yes, I think they'd be able to do that to, emotional resilience. Will they be able to? To deal with heartbreak, I don't think so. Honestly though, I don't think so because, we we show them a lot of love and maybe it's different. I don't know, maybe I'm being stupid but it's different, and they feel we're not going to let them down. And then on another level, just the ability to support themselves, support each other. I think they are, they understand what it takes to be To work and thrive in a society like America. They understand that, my son's a soccer player, VJ. And he, he trains three days a week. He goes to school and does track until 5 p. m. Like, is that resilience? It's crazy. It's absolutely, it's. I was never that committed, right? I was never that. So it's hard for these kids. So is that resilience? I think, they prepared for hard work. And my, my now 14 year old, Ravi would love him because he's a, he's a three times entrepreneur. He's, he started three businesses and stopped three businesses, right? Because he thinks You know, you can just make money that can fund these ideas and then you can go on to another one. So he understands that in terms of resilience, in terms of business. So that's my perspective. Vijay. Oh, love it. Love it. Thank you. Hey, listen I know we had a time, but if you ever. Come over to the East Coast. Just hit a few of us up. We'd love to take you out for drinks. All right. But Katie, over to you. Thank you. Yeah. As we wrap up, I just want to thank you again, Warren, for spending so much time with us. We really, I feel like we, we got to know you. And that hug is a real thing. I mean it. So thank you again for that invitation. With that though, I want to be respectful of time. We're a little bit over. We normally, we don't go over, but we would just, I think we just had too many questions and And really appreciate you taking that time. Moderators, was there anything else that you wanted to say before we give it to Tomas for the final question? Just thank you. Yeah, absolutely. Enjoyed. It seems like we just got started and here Katie's pulling the the cord on us here, but Warren, thank you for all you shared is going to resonate with many of us for years to come. Thank you so much. No, I agree. 90 minutes flew by too fast. I 100 percent agree with Warren. When he said that South Africans don't talk too much. Totally agree. I'm just joking. I'm laughing so loud. I'm laughing so loud, DJ. I'm trying to, I'm trying to be professional. I'm trying to be professional. Yeah. I'm just messing with you, brother. I'm just messing with you. All right. Thank you so much. Thank you so much, everybody. Have a wonderful evening. Hey, Warren, hang on. Before you leave, I usually like to ask this last question of you, if you'll permit me a few more minutes of your time. Yes. And this question, the reason why I like to ask it is one, it's almost like it brings us full circle, if you will, in these conversations. And I got a feeling it's cause this is going to be a good one. So it's a reflective question and I didn't tell you about this question. This is probably one of the ones that I. that I forgot to mention to you or maybe purposely forgot to mention to you, but it's a reflective question. If you had one piece of advice for the younger Warren, what would it be and why? Yeah, I, I would, I'd say don't rush, right? Don't rush, take, take your time. because there's a lot to experience and take time to, look around you and reflect. So that's what I'd be saying, because, it's always, it sounds like it's always been a rush. It's a great piece of advice. So look I do want to just make one quick announcement. We will be back next month. Please, I encourage you all to not only tune in to the replay once this gets posted, but we'll be back next month with with Katie in the hot seat. We'll be doing an encore performance or encore show with Katie. So Katie, I know I'm looking forward to this one. So please tune in next month. With that said, I do want to thank everybody for taking the time out of their busy schedules to join us and Warren, I'll leave the final words for you, my friend. Yeah. I'd say everybody just take a minute to be a little bit more kind. Not so judgmental. And love a little bit more tell someone you haven't spoken to In a while that you love them that you care about them and that you're thinking about them because time is not guaranteed Thanks, everybody. Thank you. Have a good evening. Bye everybody