Fireside Chat w/Ryan Noon, CEO @ Material Security

Hello and welcome to our weekly fireside chat. This is the replay and you got here right on time. So thanks for joining and thanks for being a member of our community. Hope you enjoy the rest of the show. So if it's the first time everybody's joining us, I do see a lot of familiar faces. So thank you all for coming back. I do see some party hats in the audience. So welcome to Clubhouse. A little sort of celebration means that you probably just joined within the past week or so. So welcome to Clubhouse. This is our weekly fireside chat. We do this every single Wednesday between, well, for about an hour and a half or so. We will ask our guests, in this case, it's Ryan Noon, who's the CEO of Material Security. We'll get into what Material Security is in a bit and we'll get into a lot more of Ryan in a few minutes. But we'll ask questions of Ryan for about 30 to 45 minutes or so and then we'll open up for the audience to sort of raise their hand and ask questions. So you'll be able to, again, raise your hand. We'll bring you up and you can ask a question of Ryan. If you do want to ask a question and you don't want to sort of come up and ask it live, you can put it in the chat. There's a little chat feature there on the bottom left of your screen. You can sort of click that and ask your question and we'll read it off to you. So, Ryan, I'm just going to go quickly around the room, introduce ourselves. I'll leave you for last. So I'm Tomas Maldonado. I'm the CISO at the NFL. Anil, over to you. Thanks, Tomas. Anil Varghese, virtual CISO for a firm here in the U.S. and one in the U.K. On to you, Katie. Hi, I'm Katie Hanahan. I'm the Vice President of Cybersecurity Strategy for Abutique SI. In Chicago, I also run their VCISO program and I am a CISO. Over to you, Russell. Very, very cool. Thanks, Katie. Hey, Russell Eubanks here. I help cybersecurity professionals get promoted inside my company, Security Ever After. Been CISO for a long time. Privileged to teach with a lot of cool companies like SANS and IONS and others. But the best part is being here every Wednesday night at 8 p.m. Vijay, over to you. Thank you, Rustin. Hey, hello, everybody. Ryan, welcome to the party. Folks, this is Vijay Bala here. I'm the CISO of the Asset Management Function at Goldman Sachs. Tomas, over to you again. Thanks. Thanks, everybody. Thanks, moderators. So, look, I've known Ryan for not that long, I'll say. I don't know if it's been a year already, Ryan, to be very honest with you. I know we met some time ago. We were chatting. Very interesting sort of technology solution. So I'll say that. If you haven't connected with Ryan, obviously, I put his LinkedIn profile there for to connect with him and learn more about his tech. But I'm really looking forward to this conversation because I'm really looking forward to getting to know you a little bit more in your journey. So why don't you take a few moments and introduce yourself? And while you're introducing yourself, Ryan, why don't you tell us a little bit about your origin story? And you can take as long as you want to tell us about yourself. All right. Great. I usually go, you know, kind of now to the distant past when I do the origin story. So, yeah. So I run this company called Material Security. We got started officially in 2017. You know, we focus on protecting, you know, Google and Microsoft accounts, whether they be, you know, obviously super fancy, you know, business accounts or VIP personal accounts, you know, everything in between. And, you know, we basically we're mostly well known for how we protect email, but it's it's kind of just a really cool like defense in depth and visibility product for, you know, these these accounts that all of us have at least I think four of at this point. And so we were, I don't know, Siri C. We did a whatever big, you know, unicorn thingy a couple of months ago. And it's kind of it's gotten real in the last couple of years. And when COVID started, we were still in like stealth mode. So it just all kind of got busy. But, yeah, I got actually started in protecting Google and Microsoft accounts because I got really obsessed with the 2016 election when like all these random, you know, G Suite tenants and Gmail accounts, you know, got popped and it caused a lot of chaos. And, you know, people historically think about, you know, email and stuff as an attack vector, which it totally is. But it's also kind of what the bad guys want. And, you know, like there's a very important conceptually in security, right, to differentiate between a vector, which is how I get you and a target, which is what I want. And I kind of had this epiphany that's like, oh, wow, like you get into my email, whether it's my work or my personal account, you get into that account and you can basically take over my whole life, steal all my secrets. You know, like it's just it's like the consequences of getting compromised is so huge. And all we are basically doing as a society is like, you know, MFA, which is cool. It doesn't it's not like a silver bullet. And, you know, trying to block bad emails that seem tricky and stuff. And so it's like we kind of were able to go a lot deeper into this problem. And it's it's been a wild ride. And I'm like, actually, really, really, you know, we just we made a bunch of hires recently. So I've been reflecting and I'm just it's like a starting a company is this, you know, journey that you don't really know where it's going. And you're always like, if I know now what I knew then, like what I still done it. And, you know, I'm actually really I'm just like really appreciative of how it's gone. And I'm really grateful to all the, you know, the customers early on and employees and stuff. And it's just I don't know. I mean, I'm in a reflective mood. So it's good that we're in Clubhouse now. But before this, before I got hopelessly and inexorably and somewhat quixotically tied to protecting Google and Microsoft accounts, I was at Dropbox. So I was an engineering director over there. I owned lots and lots of random stuff and infrastructure. My background is I'm a pretty hardcore software person. I have a grad degree in security, but like it's not, you know, everything is learned in the real world. So, yeah, so Dropbox actually acquired my first company that I started in 2014. It's called Peristructure, which was essentially if Tableau and Splunk had a baby and you could run it on Hadoop, which, you know, was a pitch that made a lot of sense in 2012 when I started that company. But, yeah, it was a lot of fun. And so I ended up at Dropbox, you know, by that acquisition. And I, you know, just kind of it was sort of finishing school for me in a lot of ways as a as a leader. And so then before that, before I, you know, was at Dropbox, I had this kind of be a Peristructure, raised a bunch of money and just kind of got got acquired at Series A. It was, you know, a two year journey end to end. And, you know, it's a it was a lot of fun. A lot of my, you know, early team there, you know, work with me again here and, you know, my co-founder now and stuff. So it was it was a highly recommend starting a company when you're, you know, 25 years old or 24 years old and you don't really know anything. You kind of get your your first company out of the way, you know, it's like you're going to you're going to screw up with your first company. So you might as well get it out of the way early. And then your second one can be when you try real hard. So before that, actually, I was I was at my first job out of grad school, which was as like a first engineer at a startup that was actually spun out of the Stanford math department. The computer science department, you know, of which I am I'm an alum for my degrees was, you know, has about 200,000 startups, I believe. You know, that's a fake number, to be clear. The Stanford math department has one. And I I was the programmer basically brought in to take the mathematician's code and make it faster and prettier and easier to iterate on and stuff. And it was like actually the perfect job for me. I started working there full time while I was still in grad school, while I was teaching and taking a full load of grad classes. And so all subsequent stress has been minor compared to having three independently intellectually difficult jobs at the same time. It's kind of like what all these people are doing during covid now where they have two jobs. And so that was like a really great way to start my career. I just like I got to hire all these people and build all this stuff. And, you know, I didn't I got to do like product management. I didn't know what that was called. I didn't know what it meant, but I got to do it. I got to do design. I made like pixel perfect mocks for my, you know, super fancy, you know, thick client, you know, OpenGL application that was written in Java and stuff. It was it was a different time, but it was it was a great, great way to start my career. And so I the math department and and DARPA are the reasons I got into entrepreneurship, which is not usually how you get into it. And then, yeah, before that, I just did two degrees at Stanford. I'm 35 now, so the economy was like pretty horrible. My senior year at Stanford, you know, Google didn't show up to the Stanford career fair in computer science, you know, in fall of 08. And so that's why I went to grad school. So I usually make the joke that like I have a master's degree because it's like how like baby boomers didn't want to go to Vietnam. So they all got PhDs. That's why I have a master's in security. So, yeah, then before that, I'm from, you know, the Midwest, Chicago and Cleveland. But I came out to California when I was 18 and now I'm too weak to go home. So I stay. But that's that's my entire bio. I'm married to a wonderful woman and I work all the time. That's awesome. Look, I think there's so much there to unpack. And I'm sure we'll get into a lot more as the other moderators sort of continue to ask questions. But, you know, quick things that I've noticed or observed in my short time of interacting with you is really bright. Got a lot of a lot of interesting and great ideas that are very commercial in nature. So I'm sure there'll be a lot of good things that come out of what you're currently doing. But anyhow, I'll pass it. Hey, Tom, if I could quickly jump in. You know, we've been doing this for quite a bit. These weekly fireside chats. We've had a lot of guests try to articulate their life. And I've not seen too many folks give a succinct rundown of their two decades as well as you did, Ryan. Good job. All right. Great. Starting companies is all about, you know, telling your story to whoever is going to listen. So you just do that for five years, more or less. So you'd be surprised it's not more comprehensible given how many times I've explained how I got this meeting and who I am. Good stuff. Hey, I'm going to hold you. Thanks, Vijay. Yeah, Ryan, welcome on board. Thanks for jumping in the hot seat. You know, one of the things, you know, that captured my attention, you know, from Parastructure to Dropbox and now material, what gave you the confidence to make the move, especially from a technical ranks into a settled organization and then strike back out with the economy where it was? And also more so that confidence, again, to, you know, provide something that new to the space. Yeah, I think it's just you can kind of like look for weird personality traits because, you know, like any other startup founder, I, you know, do random angel investing and advising, which is just like starting companies is kind of like an apprenticeship game. You know, it's like you have to learn it from somebody. If you're Googling it, you're probably finding people that aren't terribly good at it. So, like, go out and meet people and talk to people. And so the traits that I noticed that tend to correspond with this is like, you know how in like college there's like, you know, two kinds of classes, you know, in math and science, there's like problem set classes where you do a bunch of problems that have already been solved and they check you against the answer key. And then there's like project classes where you like go and make a thing. And then at the end of the quarter or the semester, you like show it at the fair and the thing that you made. Like, good startup founders love the second kind and hate the first kind. All right. And it's because you just like you want to make a thing. You want to see where it can go and you want to make it cool. You're just like, I have to like I want to I want to create something and whatever. And so and it's really like kind of just a personality trait. Like I just like you want to you want to make the website for it and then you want to code the software and then you want to, you know, make it cool and hire people and whatever. So if you just like and like that becomes like so important to you. Right. And you're just like you just want to see where it goes. Like I noticed in grad school, this is how I knew I probably should stop taking classes and actually graduate is I would try and reuse my my project from the last quarter in the next quarter to add some new feature to it. And it's like a totally wrong use of a very expensive education that luckily was paid for because I was a TA. You know, it's like you really should like go and learn the material, not just try and find a way to, you know, add a new module onto your project from last quarter. And so that that like kind of like ownership junkie mentality of like I just want to make the thing and you care more about like making the thing cool and seeing where it can go. Then you care about, I don't know, having a reasonable salary, you know, or like having career progression. You just because you just it's it's just fun. You know, y'all y'all probably have like cool hobbies and stuff. You know, what if like your your hobby and your job kind of blurred because that's just how you'd started your career. You know, my like I'm when it comes to like these like life journeys, it really matters kind of where you start. You know, it's like path dependency is the fancy nerd word for that. Right. And it's like, you know, if someone happened to, you know, start their career working at Google, you know, 2022 levels of, you know, massive headcount, you know, they're going to like just view the world a certain way. And then I call it like the the shopping mall theory of careers. You know, if you're if you're at the sixth floor, you know, the hundred and seventy five thousand person company and you go two floors down, you know, to like a thirty thousand person company. You know, you're gonna be like, wow, like I feel like I know how this company works. It's so everything makes so much more sense. And, you know, we're so nimble and agile. But like if you were you're on the first floor, you know, the like 50 person company and you went up to the fourth floor, the thirty thousand person company, you're like, what the heck is going on here? You know, like, what are we even doing? What does that whole division do? I don't know anybody. I'm a face in a crowd. Right. So I think a lot of entrepreneurs and it's hard to go like six floors down. It is terrifying to go from a really large organization to a really small organization. But the cool thing about the technology industry is that so much is changing constantly that it's this like nebula where like new new companies and new ideas are being formed constantly. So there's there's always a first floor or a basement, you know, for people that like it down there. You know, and so for me, I've spent the vast majority of my career within this analogy, you know, at the first or second floor. You know, I got to Dropbox and it was like 600 people. And for me, it might as well have been like 60,000. So I'm just I'm always amazed at these people that can be so effective, you know, in executive roles at these large companies. And that's like, you know, a lot of our customers and a lot of my, you know, like friends at this point are, you know, like executives of real companies. It's just amazing that like you can you can change them. You know, like I have to change big companies by, you know, developing technology that helps them. That's the only way I know how to do it, you know. So it's not so much like a confidence thing. It's like a this is who I am. You know, it's like it's like what I like to do and what I know how to do. You know, it's like it's like some people play the violin. Some people start companies, you know. So. Oh, that's great. Thanks for sharing that, Ryan. That's great perspective. And basically you're saying it's natural. So, you know, it's a follow up question. You know, I recall reading a glowing blog from Martin, one of your investor partners from a VC standpoint, just giving rave reviews about the organization and the approach. You know, one thing, you know, once you talk about is, you know, developing those relationships on a business side, you know, how key those were and be able to foster those. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, what kind? What kind? Do you mean the customer side or investor side or potential employees? I think combination of both. Yeah. Yeah. The customer as well as the investor side. Right. Just to be able to see the landscape, paint the picture, but also developing the rapport with the teams you engage with. Yeah. I mean, I think you just have to be really great at that. You know, this is like a, you know, I, when you, when you talk to startup founders, you know, you, you see particular strengths and weaknesses. Right. And, you know, meeting people and getting them to understand what you're doing, figuring out how you can help them and they can help you without it feeling like some weird transactional, like psycho thing without it, like feeling just like it should be a natural human thing. Like, that's, that's like a really important skill. And I've like, I've learned it from, from mentors as best I can. I've seen people that are substantially better at it than me and worse than me, but it's, you know, technology companies, like it's, it's an ecosystem. Right. Like, you know, yeah, you can zoom out to the 30,000 foot level and say, well, there's this asset class and, you know, like, you know, private, you know, large LPs need to diversify their, you know, state employee pension funds. And so it depends on the venture ecosystem that forms, you know, creative destruction and new technology. I don't know, like these things are all ecosystems, like all, all businesses and ecosystem. But it's just learning it as, as a participant in it and understanding the different people and their incentives and like what they care about and how they view the world. And then kind of, you know, just being able to map like your journey with their journey, you know, I, like I, I, I, part of it is, yeah, I've, I've been in the Valley since I was 18. And you can't go to Stanford without having a lot of this stuff force fed to you. I remember like, you know, CS 101, basically, you know, you pass by the like Lego brick, you know, scuzzy file server that Google used when it was an academic project, you know, and like you, it kind of creates a pantheon and you start to like pay attention and be aware of these things. But it's just like meeting people, you know, it's, it's like wild to me how many people, for example, start companies and then they, you know, they, they hide from all of the investors until they like, you know, make some pitch deck on their own. And then they drive over to Sand Hill Road and then they try and do 30 meetings in a week. Cause they're like, yeah, yeah, I'll put some, and then I'll get back to work. And it's like, no, like, why don't you get to know people and what they care about? Like, you know, what, what is your excuse for not having a top 10 fantasy board member list? Like who's on your board really matters when you start companies. It's like easier to get rid of like the co-founder or frankly, a spouse than a board member, you know? And how have you not like been trying to figure out who's awesome to work with and who you'd really like? How are you approaching this? Like so narrow minded and so transactionally, you know, take your damn time. It really matters. So my, my approach to investors is get to know them as people and what they care about and what they invest in and who's good and who's bad and whatever. And, you know, you have to give to, to get that. So I don't know, just, you have to care and you have to be a little bit patient. Perfect. Perfect. Thanks, Ryan. Appreciate you. You sharing that insider's view. Cause I think, I think that's like a lot of things that people don't see that insight or glean that versus just running from deck to deck to, to, to pitch to pitch. Right. Thank you for sharing that onto you, Katie. Yeah. Thank you. Hey, fellow Chicago. And I know it's been a few years for you, but nice to talk to somebody else from the flyover States. Yep. I left when I was 10 because my folks split up and we moved back to, to my ancestral home of Cleveland, Ohio. Whenever I hear a great Chicago accent, I just, I, I, a great Wisconsin accent or a great Chicago accent will just drive me to tears of joy. Oh, well, they're there now. I'll get you. I'll get you with Wisconsin. All right. Wisconsin. Welcome to the program. Yeah. No, I'm more of the Wisconsin accent. I'm actually a suburban person up north, but yeah, no, loved a lot about what you've said this evening. You know, I, I can relate to a few things just having been an early employee at some startups. And, but I, one of my favorite things that I always love to pick my favorite quote of the night, I think I already have one for you. Well, you can either play the violin or you start a company, you know, just a hobby. I love how you made that sound so easy. Yeah. I mean, you spend a lot of hours learning the violin and you spend a lot of hours figuring out how to start companies, you know? Yeah. It's amazing how little time people spend learning about an art, but I'm not saying I'm an artist. I'm doing my best. I'm an, I'm an aspiring amateur violin player within this analogy. But, you know, things are, things are calling, things are passion and like, you know, like your, your job is your passion for some people. Well, I related to that. And I think that's why I, I, I'm laughing a little bit, but I think I'm laughing with you because I do feel like, you know, this is a community. You know, you've joined a community today where we care a lot about, you know, people like you in our community who are doing interesting things and, and view it that way. You said really early on. So the question I'm getting to is you, you said you were in a series of kind of, you know, reflection coming out of your, your latest funding round and looking at things. And you also said something about you always were, you know, floor one or floor two in these smaller companies. Well, you know, you're, you're now kind of getting into the big leagues a little bit, right? With this, this newest round you're growing. As you're reflecting, what are the things that you're reflecting about? And maybe I missed that, but I would love to know what you were thinking about today in that period of reflection. Oh yeah. I mean, obviously like the, you know, it's sort of like the dog that catches the car, you know, like, wow, the company is growing. It's going well. You know, and there's also a bit of tragic irony, you know, when, when the company starts to grow, because, you know, you, if you're someone who loves technology and loves software, right. I, we, we got to like the $75 million series, anything in the first handful of like public company, like name brand customers, which just the three founders of this company wouldn't even hire anybody. Right. And it was because like, we just really wanted to have a really tight iteration loop and just like, make sure it got done the right way. You know, it doesn't mean like, you know, we were, so we've always been smaller than people think we are. But like, the funny thing is, is, you know, so much love goes into building the product. And then if it goes well, and you're in charge, you have to basically decide to either not be in charge. All right. Or to, to, you know, become a, a manager and a motivational figure. And, you know, the engineers might call you and they're like, Hey, what is this code from four years ago do? And it makes your day. Cause you're like, Oh, I remember I like, I, here's what I was thinking when I did that. So there's a, there's a bit of irony in like, you know, if it goes well, it, it puts distance between you and the thing that you love, or you have to be able to transfer the love for the product. Or the love from the software that you've created to your organization and the culture and the customers and all this stuff. So it's, it's always a thing in motion, you know, these, these journeys. I mean, every career is this way, but this is just the one that I know how to talk about, you know? And so this is the kind of reflection that I, I think I can't help but go through. And the funny thing is, is yeah, it gets real. And, you know, I think we're still maybe on the first or second floor. We're not a large company. We're a valuable company and I'm, and I'm grateful for what has made us valuable, but we're not a huge company in terms of head count. You know, we're, we're kind of a quality over quantity taken to potentially an unhealthy extreme, but you know, to, to, to dig into it, like, you know, you, you always sort of wonder, I'm sure as, as, as executives, you all feel the same way. You're like, where's my ceiling? You know, like I'm going to hit it like somewhere between, you know, the mail room and president of earth. Like we all hit our ceiling, you know, like what are our limits within this specific calling? It doesn't mean you're a bad person. It just means, well, uh, you know, not everybody is gonna, you know, you know, run a super fast 50 yard dash or like dunk a basketball. Right? Like, so you're always like, I, I hope my ceiling is, you know, in my, in my abilities is, uh, you know, you know, you're not going to be a big deal. You know, higher up than, than, uh, you know, like I hope I'm self-aware when I get there, you know, and I hope it's higher than, than my, my ambitions. You know, I hope I can go as long as I need to go and grow as much as I need to grow. Cause these all, it's all, it's all growth journeys, you know, it's all, it's all something becoming, it's never what you are. It's what you're, what you're becoming. So, uh, I don't know, this is, this is, this is reflecting, but you know, I, I, I want to, you know, there's also a really funny angle when you start the company and that you're a very large shareholder. But you're also an employee. Right. And so every, every quarter when I'm doing my board prep, I'm like, as a shareholder, do I like the CEO's direction? You know, it's like, uh, is there a better CEO for this company? You know, I, I really care. Cause I, I got a lot of stock in this company cause I started it, you know? Uh, but then you're like, as the CEO, you're like, am I doing a good job? You know, like, you know, is, uh, are they gonna fire me? And it's like, no, it's actually going really well, but it's the, the kind of the dual roles, you know, you have to do what's best for the company. You really do. And so there's a lot of like self analysis that goes into this. It just does, you know, like, am I, am I, am I now the CEO I need to be for the next 12 months? You know, is a, is a constant question that I think you ask yourself when the company is growing. So. That's fascinating. Yeah. No, yeah, that's true. You're, you're the, the shareholder and the employee all at the same time. And, uh, that dichotomy I think is what I, I, I, again, always enjoyed about, um, early stage companies and, um, yeah, applaud you for it though. Anyone who's that entrepreneurial, um, that would, uh, again, consider this a really great hobby to actually be that, um, you know, bleeding edge. Uh, the, the tip of the sword, um, going in and meeting with your board every quarter. I'm sweating just thinking about all the time when I came up through sales, having to go and talk to the board about our, our last quarter of just the sales numbers. Right. I'm not kidding. I'm sweating thinking about it. I mean, when the, the ownership junkie mentality that I'm talking about, it, it kind of dovetails very well with the responsibility junkie, you know, you're like, yeah, I'll be accountable. I'm super accountable. Who wants to hold me accountable? Do you want to hold me accountable? Do you want to hold me accountable? Do you want to hold me accountable? So it's, it's always fun. You know, you have to just find a way to enjoy it. Uh, that's what I try to do. The other fun thing is that my, I have two co-founders, Chris and Avyshek, and they're both fantastic. And like, they are what makes this possible and fun. Uh, and we are all like equal co-owners of the company. And it was very much like a labor of love for all of us. Uh, what is funny is the reporting structure of the company is yes, they report to me. One is the CTO, one is the vice president of engineering, but they're both on the board. And so the CEO works for the board. So in graph theory, you know, there's a cycle, you know, the arrows are, are pointing a circle within our org chart. Uh, and at some point we were just like, wait a second. Like, cause you, you had to like learn to talk to each other properly. Cause you kind of need to be able to be like, as your boss, as the CEO, I need you to understand this thing because I, I exist like one hop up, you know, the, the, the, you know, the, the, the watch tower, you know, I, I'm thinking a little bit longer term than you guys. So, you know, every, everybody needs a boss, including me, obviously, but then there's like a, as, as board members, you know, we need to have this conversation as peers or as co-founders, we need to have this conversation as peers. So at some point we kind of just started doing a little like preamble before we would say something like speaking as your co-founder, you know, X, right. Or speaking as the CEO, talking to the vice president of engineering, you know, this, you know, why? Right. And so it's a, it's just, it's very easy to, to cross the streams. Very, very easy. Cause you need, you need peers, you need partners, you need business partners, but you also need a functional org chart. And so many companies screw that up. I've met a couple of those companies. So no, I think that's wonderful. You know, I really appreciate that perspective. So yeah, with that though, I'll pass the mic over to, to Vijay. Thanks Ryan. Yeah. Thank you, Katie. Ryan, been enjoying it so far. Two quick questions. One on the fun side and one we can get a little bit more professional. Here on the, on the more on the personal front side, you know, the audience and the mods would like to know you more as a person. So what sort of hobbies do you have? Oh man. Yeah. Yeah. Somebody, somebody kind of gave me this model once, which is like, if your life is a room and all the things in the room are, you know, what's in your life? You know, your, your kids are the bookshelf or something, you know, it's like the what's, what's in the room. And so if you've got a startup, your startup is, you know, the, the, the air in the room, it will expand, you know, to fill whatever is available to it. And so the startup kind of, it like, it like, you know, oozes into, into every pore of your life where you let it, unless you have something tougher and stronger that can push back against, you know, the, the parcel pressure of atmospheric, you know, nitrogen or whatever in the room. You know, unless you've got that like lead brick, that is your marriage, you know, the startup will push back against it. And so for me, my hobbies are, are somewhat streamlined, shall we say, at this point, I, and a lot of them involve, you know, being able to unplug and recharge or, or aggressively dissipate stress. So, you know, I, my, my, my wife is fantastic. My hobby is like, just spending time with her and like, listening to her. And like, you know, we went hiking and like, you know, in the Eastern Sierras over the long weekend, you know, just like, just being present in the life of the person I love. That's a big one. It's just like trying to be a good husband, very strong hobby, very important hobby. And then, you know, and then a lot of the other ones are like, you know, I all like unplug and I read a lot of random stuff. I'm a huge, like history nut. I like, you know, geopolitics. I read, you know, a Kissinger book on my honeymoon, you know, like I'm, I'm kind of a big dork. And then I also, you know, I really love like, you know, running. I've done a couple of marathons and I just like, I'll just go up in the hills, you know, outside of Redwood City. And just like, you know, a lot of times, honestly, like with my wife and just like, I'd have long meandering conversations and stuff. And like, I've noticed that like running just dissipates stress. You guys have probably noticed this with exercise too. You can obviously sleep to regain your sanity and allow your stress to go away. But just like, gosh, going for like a solid, like five mile run, just a basic, you know, evening run. It's just like, it makes it, you know, everything kind of melts away. Something about the endorphins or whatever is just thoroughly therapeutic. So to summarize, you know, hanging out with my, my small set of loved ones, reading random stuff. I really despise business books. I really should read more of them. I would probably be better at my job. I just like, I read to go somewhere else, you know? And so, and then just obviously exercise. Like, like play some video games and stuff every once again. I'm not, I am a millennial and whatever, but, but yeah, it's, it's not, not a lot. I, I'm kind of like pathologically industrious, but like the startup kind of claims all of that. Like I could be like, oh, I'm going to go in, you know, whatever, like build a cool model of an airplane. And then like halfway through, I'd be like, I'm just thinking about the startup, you know? So like you need things that are really different than the startup. All right. Love it. Love it. Hey, and then more on the serious front. I mean, clearly you've done a lot of fascinating stuff along the way. It's kind of you to say that. What's your moonshot problem? Like what drives you? Oh man. Um, I'm, I'm definitely sort of a, a, a crusade mentality. Like I have one sort of mission at a time. Uh, and so it, it honestly, like it, it kind of makes it easier for me life-wise. Cause it's like, well, I don't know how long this startup is going to go. Like I want to, I want to go the distance. I think every, every startup has, you know, a natural endpoint. And, you know, obviously the goal is to make a valuable like public company that can stand the test of time and whatever. But like, so, so I, I kind of think in terms of like eras of my life and right now I am in the material security era of my life. And for like biological reasons and stuff, I need to kind of get busy on, on having a family and stuff now. Cause you know, there's not that many more years left and I don't want to be like 2000 years old. Uh, when the little ones are running around and, and my wife is, you know, is, is a couple of years behind me, but you know, we can't wait forever. And so like, I need to like handle some balance, you know, but ideally it would have been like, okay, there's the, there's the material security era. Then there's the, be the world's greatest dad era. Then there's the, you know, whatever, go to the moon. I don't know, literally whatever, who knows where things will be, but it's sort of like you have, I'm someone who kind of likes to have an overriding mission or crusade at any given one time. You know, I'm, I'm, like I said, I'm not a super great balance person. So for now, my mission is to make material security, a fantastic partner to our customers and to make it incredibly valuable for our employees and our investors. Uh, and to just like, honestly, like make a difference in security. Like I love security. Like you can, you know, if you go to our website, you know, material.security, uh, you can find like manifestos on the blog about like what we think. Like the security industry actually needs to, to make this problem go away and why it's so hard in the first place. I love thinking about like technology and society and how we can actually make a difference. And that's one of the wild things about startups is that you're like, I, I made this thing and it actually, you know, it didn't exist. And it's making a difference for some people. I, I'm sure like being an executive, a large company, you can, you can change the culture of a large organization and you can change, you know, some aspect of society or something. But like, just when you start to see that, like, you're having an impact that is significantly larger than what you were, you know, born to than like what you thought, like you were capable of. You're just like, this is amazing. So like, what, what, what do I want to be different? And so like these, these, these crusades kind of like, you know, they kind of take over, but I, I have a lot of diverse eclectic interests that are somewhat repressed right now, given, you know, the complexity of my day job. And so I don't know the, the next era, you know, I, I care a lot about, you know, honestly, like American society. I care a lot about the world. I care a lot about like the little values. So I don't really know, but right now, this is my mission. There's no, like, this is not a stepping stone to what I will do afterwards. It's a growth journey, obviously. But I kind of, I'm a, I'm a, I'm a one mission at a time person. Definitely. I like it. I like it. I like it. One mission. Great. Russell, over to you, my friend. Thank you, BJ. Ryan. I love, love every, your passion makes me even more excited to be inside that I've been around for a while. First of all, hats off. You win the LinkedIn banner award. I've never seen one better. One that I want to be as much as what yours is. I love it so much. So you talked about some of the key factors and attributes characteristics of being a successful founder and clearly successful at that. What are the things that make a founder successful ones that can be transported into different types of industries? Or do you see one that says, hey, I'm niching into this type of founder or that type of founder? How do you, how do I think about that with respect to the skills necessary to be successful that may or may not be portable from one industry sector and such to another? Yeah, I, I, I have a huge pet peeve, which is like, you know, pure, unadulterated startup, Silicon Valley arrogance to be like, why can't we make the defense department more like Silicon Valley or whatever? So like I, I'm usually very careful before I will assert that, like, the, the, the things that I've had to do to be as marginally successful as I am, are transferable. You know, it's like, it's like, uh, come, you know, come to Silicon Valley and see what allows us to be better than you is like, I'm not going to be better than you. It's like, it's, it's like, you know, it's like, uh, it deserves qualification. Uh, the things that I think are potentially transferable. And honestly, like I, I love meeting, you know, leaders and all, every different context, you know, leaders who have to make things different, who have to, you know, shoulder tremendous responsibility. You know, we had, we actually had like, uh, an air force Colonel, like intern with us for a couple of months. There was a really awesome program. Uh, you know, that, that I, we were lucky enough to be a part of, and this is someone who went to the academy, uh, and, and, you know, has been through a lot of different contexts. It's lived around the world has, you know, put massive parts of their personal life, you know, on, on hold and made big sacrifices. And they have so much to teach me about leadership. You know, they don't get to start from scratch. They don't, you know, they, they can put their direct reports, you know, in prison, which none of us can do, you know, but like, it's, uh, it's just wild. And so, you know, all these different, different, you know, like management cultures and all these different, you know, problem spaces and that opportunities, they just, they have their own separate rhythm, but the ones that I think might, you know, if there's something to, to extrapolate out of the Silicon Valley journey, it's well, uh, you know, when you're building something from scratch, you have to kind of be a generalist or you have to have an appreciation for every function. So like great founders, I think do this, right. They tend to be versatile. Like I am, I'm like a, I'm not a Jack of all trades. Cause I am like a pretty solid, like computer programmer, scientist, engineer person. Uh, but like I, I'm, I'm a, you know, maybe a king or a really solid queen of that trade. And then a Jack or a queen of a couple others. And it's, it's so fun. Cause you get to like, you get this massive empathy for every different role. It's not like I'm a marketing person and I think sales is screwing up, you know, or like, what do, what do engineers even do? They just play with their computer all the time. Like, no, like everyone on the team has like a tremendous, like, you know, like role to play, you know? And, and so being able to like, see these, these organizations as a whole and how they need to fit together to be successful. And just being like an odd that, you know, you, you get it because when it's just you, you have to do crappy sales, crappy marketing, hopefully. Okay. Engineering, you know, hopefully. Okay. Accounting, you know? And so they're just, uh, seeing the, the, the need for, you know, the military analogy that I like is combined arms, right? That like, we are a better armed forces if we have planes and artillery and tanks, and we know how to talk to each other, you know? Uh, so it's, there's, there's that. And then I think in general, there's just a, like a appreciation for change, right? It is very natural, uh, for anybody in any job to just try and like lock down the roles and responsibilities and rhythms of the job. So that you can honestly like stress out less about it and maybe have more free time, you know, once you get good at a job. But when you're starting the company and you're trying to run it for as long as you're able to, uh, if you start to feel good about the way that you're approaching your job, you're, you're kind of getting too comfortable. Cause the thing needs to change. It needs to grow a start that doesn't grow is dead, you know? And so you have to kind of just get good at being forever outside of your comfort zone. You know, there's a, there's a, uh, a, uh, you know, the guy, Jack LaLanne, he was like the fitness guru in the fifties. He had like, you know, a phrase which was like, if it tastes good, spit it out. That was his approach to dieting. Uh, and so this is sort of like, if you're, if you felt like you're good at your job, uh, you know, you're probably doing it wrong. And I think that's like a, a, a, a really insane growth mindset. Uh, and I, I think the, the, the founders that sort of embrace that, uh, you know, you can know what you're good at, but like, you can know where you need to grow. And you're constantly like analyzing this and trying to, to find mentors and just be ready for what you need to be because the thing is growing and it's your job to grow it. No one else is going to do it. If not for you, you know, no one else has the moral authority, let alone like the org chart, you know, to, to, to actually grow the thing. It's your job to do it. And so I think it's just like that, that, you know, healthy appreciation for, uh, for growth is I think it's just an unavoidable fact of life in, in being, you know, functional at this job in particular. So. Yeah. I love that statement. So many things you said I love, but be ready for what you need to be. I'm going to, that's going to be a big takeaway for me. I really appreciate that. Uh, Ryan Tomas back over to you. Great conversation. Uh, just going to do a very quick room reset. Uh, again, it's, it's, if it's the first time you joined us as a weekly fireside chat, there's a little greenhouse on the top left of your screen. Right next to where it says a fireside chat, it looks like a little green monopoly house. You can click that and subscribe to our fireside chat club. I'm also giving Ryan some time to drink some water. Cause he's been talking a lot. We've got him in the hot seat hammering him away with questions. Uh, but it's really been a great conversation. Uh, so far. So I do see Jennifer joining us. And Jennifer usually joins us. Uh, over to you. Hey, thanks Tomas. Uh, Ryan. I am so enjoying. Should we have a timer? Stop it. Um, anyways, a couple of quick observations. Then I'm gonna ask you a question. Um, do you know Jay Simons by any chance? From Atlassian? I'm not like, oh, Jay Simons. Yeah. I know Jay. I better make me. Okay. So I was in a, I will take that compliment. Everyone thinks he's really great. He is great. Uh, he's great. So I'm glad you know him. He said that's a compliment. Um, totally. He very similar thoughts processes there. Um, also. Yeah, I know. Right. Um, uh, you guys can look him up on LinkedIn. Anyways, uh, he did well and I'm super glad he did. So we were a turn work together back at plum tree. So, um, and, uh, red what book on your honeymoon. So no wonder you have to spend more time with your wife and go jogging with her. Uh, that definitely, I could see that happening more, more quality time with wife. Jacqueline for people who don't know who that is. Um, go back to your linear TV. It probably came on right after Perry Mason. So Ryan, that's an old joke because Tomas loves referring to Perry Mason for pretty much everything. I don't think anybody knows other than us. That is. Um, you have been, uh, I'm in, I'm in the Valley with, um, a lot of small to mid to those large, you know, you have to sign the Oracle companies and I've been at all of them. Um, and I, I, everything you've said is super accurate on all those floors and how things work together or don't and your humbleness in how you describe, how you made the leaps that you did. And in, um, the expertise in trying to say, why wouldn't you do this? Or why wouldn't you make your top 10 list? Or why wouldn't, you know, you've got to figure out the business side and I'm in Silicon Valley and I'll say upwards of 50% of, you know, startups don't do that. You've got these egotistical people. You guys have heard my rants on Silicon Valley. So I, I'm curious as to how, you know, how you're doing this. To how you did make, you kind of answered it earlier. I think Russell or Emilians asked the question, like how you reached out, we're making the relationships, but it's kind of a different thought process and a different model to come from the computer science and math background to running a business and working with those people. And as you said, those relationships between departments and respecting each other, like I'm in legal and we've, you know, a lot of people are like sales is stupid. Marketing is stupid and we're not, we're all partners here. Right? So if something's not working or not working well, we're all part of that process. And how do we work together to fix it? Or what's the goal that I'm not, I'm missing. But, um, how did you learn that? Cause you seem very savvy with that. Uh, well, if you suck at something for long enough and you're self-critical. Not being humble. No, seriously. No, no. I'm like, I'm, it's like, I'm, I'm like acutely aware of like almost every mistake I've ever You know, like when I close my eyes at night, I'm like, Oh, screwed that up. Screwed that up. Screwed that up. Screwed that up. Screwed that. You know, I'm proud of it too. I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I really try to remind myself of like, you know, someone gave us, you know, two and a half million dollars. You know, when we were like 24 years old, like do things our way and like build our dreams. And it's so easy to be like, Oh, like I'm this super busy startup founder, everything. And woe is me. You know, I have no time to screw around. Like my friends who work at Google and whatever. And you're like, people gave you a fortune to build your dreams. Shut up. That's amazing. Like we live in a magic world and a magic place. So like, enjoy it. Stop complaining. You know, like it doesn't mean you like, shouldn't find a good therapist and figure out how to manage your stress. And it is very easy to be the dog that got into the dog food as a startup founder. Okay. And to just like push yourself harder and harder and harder. And I don't mean to be like, you know, like, you know, like mental health, all these things need to be talked about. But like, it just there's so much, you know, like the broader society wide conversation about tech companies and startup founders and whatever. Like, it's just gotten to be like a lot. All right. And like, it's just. I'm going to guide you a little bit on that one. I just so both your answer here again, being like, wow, people gave me money because again, I work with startup funders who are like, I don't know, I'm a genius and I deserve this money. And if I, if I'm not running the company well, I want a bridge loan. So your, your, your humbleness again on, on that, on recognizing it and an earlier comment you made in the conversation about, and I want to do something that is just back or is progressive in society versus just making money for myself. Again, those are, those are refreshing, super refreshing to hear his perspective. And I'm just, I'm super glad and curious. I mean, just again, like being the CEO and having, did you with your board, I would guess, is it all of your investors or are there other people that you select on your board? We have a pretty small board, actually. Our board is like four people. So. You said some of them are your exec staff. Do they, or they were your exec staff reports to them. So. So did you choose them? My co-founders are on the board and, and, and our, our biggest investor is on the board. So it's, it's a pretty small board. Um, that's like corporate governance is a, a bit of a pivot in this conversation, but, uh, but yeah, I, I have kind of like, I have a lot of people that, you know, that, that my co-founders and I talk to every quarter and get advice from, and you try to be like accountable to your investors, even if they're not literally on your board. Uh, but our, our board is like real small. It's like a, a very solid, you know, deliberative body full of somewhat manic people. And I love it. I love our board so much. So, but it's not a big board. It's awesome. And also that you're, uh, so another answering my earlier question, it sounds like you, you all have people that you talk to or found mentors to help with this. I, I'm just super impressed. So thanks for the conversation. Well, thank you for all the really kind words that puts gas in my tank. Definitely. Definitely. Oh, and if you're new to clubhouse. So when we go like that with the phone, we're clapping. And then, do you know that one? And then there's also a side chat. I don't know if Tomas went over there already. You Katie and Noah clapping too. Cool. I'm just trying not to, I'm just trying not to break my phone. And like, I get text messages and stuff now, cause everyone uses these things for work. So I'm just trying not to screw up the clubhouse frankly. Yeah. Your phone for work now. And then, yeah. And if you swipe, there's a room chat. I know. Right. Room chat. But anyways, yeah. Just let me do a quick, yeah. And Russell, the thumbs up. Um, no, super refreshing. Very nice to hear. So thanks. Cool. Yeah. You asked the one question about like, how do you go from being a programming dork to like trying to manage relationships and be accountable to people. And I think you get this, like the problem with computers is that like one person who's really smart actually can accomplish a lot. Cause a computer is a tool and tools amplify and create leverage, you know? And so one really incredible programmer can do the work of a hundred programmers. Or if you get the, the, the credit card flow, right, you know, 20 salespeople or whatever. And so there's this, it kind of naturally feeds into this like hero 10 X Uber Ninja mentality. Cause like the computers do our work for us if we're doing it right. That is the point. Anyone who's ever seen someone, you know, use an Excel spreadsheet with a calculator on their desk. It's like, oh my God, let the computer do the work for you. But like ultimately the level of understanding beyond that, beyond the, like, you know, if I have, you know, exactly what I need, I don't need anybody else. I am Superman, whatever is like, well, if you have 10 of you that are all as smart as you and work together really well, they're going to kick your butt. All right. And so you ultimately like, or like there's things that you, you know, I, in like, kind of like, you know, nerd Dungeons and Dragons terms, I always kind of think about like, you know, the statistics, the, the, the, the stat points, you have like strength, you know, charisma, intelligence, whatever. Uh, and like, you know, the, the, the difference between intelligence and wisdom, you know, like, like, they're separate stats in like, you know, role-playing games. I told you, I'm a big nerd. Like, go look at my, my LinkedIn banner. I'm a big nerd. Uh, and you know, intelligence is like, you know, how much compute do you have in your head? Like how quick are you, you know, how fast can you, can you calculate and figure things out? Wisdom is, you know, what have you experienced? And like, you don't, you don't in, in, uh, in programming terms, it's called time space trade-off. I've already pre-calculated all of this. So I don't need a fast DPU, you know? And so when you, when you see just like the right combination of, of intelligence and wisdom, you're like, okay, I should probably stop being so into my own intelligence and try and get some wisdom from other people. This wisdom thing, this has, this has legs. I think I like wisdom, you know? You know, and so you just realize like how fast you can, you can get better and accomplish the things that you care about. If you get good at meeting people and taking their advice, when it makes sense, like good founders have to be, you know, you'll, you'll take five, you know, coffee meetings with five really smart people who have way more experience than you in a day. And all five of them will give you contradictory advice. A great skill of a founder is not throwing that away. It's not averaging all of it. Cause if you average five different perspectives together, you usually get something horrible, right? It's picking and choosing and figuring out what actually applies to you and understanding why somebody told you that and asking the right follow-up questions can make you sure that you're actually able to benefit from their wisdom. And it's like wild, just like how impatient and unthoughtful everybody can be with regard to these very simple, useful things. So. No, I'm going to, I'm going to jump on that Ryan. So, cause I just, okay, two things back to the beginning of your comments, the fact that you feel accountable again, is a skillset. So in doing this work, like you're, you know, even if you're the super programmer who can do things, and I love AI, I was like, I can't wait till they get in the legal field, but better than they are. But, but to know that you're accountable is a maturity. And I guess I would say, I don't know if it's a skill, but it's a, it's definitely an attribute. So to know that you're accountable to meet with the people who are your people who can give you advice and understand not, you're not just meeting with them. The reason I'm bringing this up is just looking to the Seth Godin podcast on this, that people meet with people to get reinforcement of what they're already doing versus listen to what they need to change. And you're listening to it and going, okay, what does make sense? And you're not saying, Hey, I'm not gonna, nothing makes sense. They don't know my business. Like a lot of the stuff that you're saying is just, is so mature on this, as you said, path and development in listening to this, these things and going, Hey, what does make sense versus you don't know my business or I'm doing it the right way. And it was super great. And when we get great people in the audience, so hopefully others are going to come up and ask you questions as well, but very appreciative. I just, these are not like you're, you're, you're rattling these things off. Like there are things that you would normally do or everyone does and they're not, they're super unique. So in my experience. Right. Cool. I mean, life is just a struggle for self-awareness. So, and when it comes to accountability, like if you have even a, a, a basic grasp of history, you realize, wow, the worst things in human history come from a lack of accountability. Like being unaccountable sounds awesome, but actually we all suffer. So accountability is a good thing. Like the worst, worst, worst parts of the entire human story are people who are not accountable. Love it. I 100% agree. And how are you doing with your kids in Silicon Valley area and holding up that accountability? That should be a real fun one. Oh, I don't have any yet. So I'm trying to figure this out and I'm trying to, I'm eagerly recruiting mentors in the form of parents who've managed to make it through. Yeah. I have some, some friends who had to go through some creative hoops there to, to ensure accountability and et cetera. Yeah. Which is fascinating. It's fascinating. Yeah. The Bay area is a strange place to raise kids. I come from the Midwest and I honestly, I'm not sure if it makes any sense to try and raise kids here. It's a, it is a struggle. If for no other reason, the, the other, the other families and the other kids that your kids get exposed to, there's just crazy crazy. Can I tell one quick story then? Can I tell one that everyone's going to be really funny on? It's obviously my show. So I'll, I'll allow you to tell your story. Thank you, Ryan. So remember, okay. So Vivek, what's his name? Who is a CEO of TIBCO and he was trying to teach his kids values. So we used to ride together and he was like, you know, we were like, how do you teach your kids values when you've got like a hundred million bazillion dollars? He was like, well, okay. So they want to do a lemonade stand. So I make them go down to the end of the corner and set up a lemonade stand. And you know, this is how they're going to learn a little bit of like what money is and how this works. He goes, and Larry Ellison just, you know, pulls over his Ferrari and throws him a hundred dollar bill for this thing. And he's like, you know, that's not working. That's so not working. And that's a real story. They learned market segmentation actually. They learned that the importance of a premium lemonade, you know. And other friends who were like, I don't care if you work, honey, but you have to leave the house at eight and not come back till five. That's another one in Hillsborough. But it was like, yeah, there's just, there's, there's tricks you got to get through there and stress. But anyways, yeah, back to the room. Sorry. Awesome. Thanks, Jennifer. Thanks for adding to the conversation. It's always great to have you here. George, what's up, man? Anything you want to ask Ryan? Hey, guys. Ryan, I had to jump on stage. I joined late, but thank you for sharing what you have so far. I had to jump on because I am also a huge believer in self-awareness is maybe the most important met auto critical impulse. Because it's, I think what allows us to move forward and maybe past ourselves. But I wanted to ask you in terms of accountability and in terms of what you said earlier about, you know, closing your eyes at night and thinking about what you did wrong. And how you channel that energy from, you know, guilt or shame, which I think is less productive and to maybe regret, which is maybe more instructive. And I think those words have different definitions for other people. How do you take it and you don't dwell on it, but you use it as an action step to move forward? If you could speak on that, I'd be grateful. Yeah. Obviously, it's like kind of hard to vocalize some of these things. You know, some people, you just you just do your best to have a flame that burns within you that doesn't burn too hot. But like I there's a there's like a country song that I think I'm not a I'm not a country music expert. But the song is called like God bless the broken road that led me straight to you or whatever. That's the refrain. And I think about that. It's sort of like if you're if you like where you are and you are grateful for where you are, then like, you know, the mistakes that you've made, like, you know, honestly, like are part of how you got where you are. You know, she's like, well, I definitely screwed that one up. I definitely burned, you know, three months on the wrong hire or whatever. Right. But even if that had been the right hire, then, you know, well, maybe it wouldn't. You know, you have to kind of if you have like a baseline, like comfort and motivation. And I don't mean to be like hashtag blessed, you know, like gratitude for necessarily where you are, because like that gets cloying pretty quickly. But it's like if you're focused on the future and you're you're kind of happy and, you know, grateful that you are where you are, then everything you've ever screwed up is part of the same, you know, like life experience smoothie that got you to where you are. And you kind of have to take the good with the bad, frankly. You know, my sister and I talk about this a lot because we have a kind of like a rough upbringing and she's always like, how are we not, you know, in jail? You know, how are we not like what she's she's an anesthesiologist in Columbus, Ohio, you know, at Ohio State. And she's great, you know, patients love her. She's got two great kids. And, you know, she'll kind of get like self-pitying sometimes. And I'm not saying I'm perfect. I probably did the same thing. But like, it's just like you have an awesome life like this was not, you know, guaranteed and it wasn't even likely. So like, yeah, it sucks that that happened and that was unfair and that, you know, your your friends didn't have that problem and whatever, whatever. You know, a lot of this comes back to like our parents and stuff, you know, I don't feel like too Freudian here. But like, it's just like if you be OK with where you are as best you can. Right. Be focused on where you want to go and like and do your best to accept that everything that's happened to you is like inextricably part of where you are. And like, yeah, like maybe if that one thing had happened differently, you'd be way better if I had bought Bitcoin in 2012 or whatever. But like, yeah, like plenty of things went right, too, and could have gone wrong. You know, like I I was like on a on a hike with, you know, with my wife the other day and I was just like walking through these interesting little like existential choke points, you know, in my life. Like, oh, I wanted to to to Stanford has this undergraduate computer science program called Section Leading where the undergrads teach other undergrads. It makes so much sense and it's so cool. And I'm like so glad that I did it. And it's just like some extracurricular that I applied to because it sounded fun. And like that's like literally how I how I met my wife and like, you know, like my like the best friend that like, you know, like officiated my wedding. It's like what got me into startups because like, you know, it's just like these you have it like life is kind of a crapshoot, you know, and for everything you can dwell on like some some plenty of things broke your way, too. And so just be OK with where you are, like find a way to be OK with where you are. And then, you know, just honestly, like take a deep breath and be somewhat glad of it, you know. Awesome. Thank you. I have a follow up there. I had sorry, Tomas, I didn't know if you were able to. You're good. Go ahead. Great. You're on mute. OK. Yeah. So I have a follow up question. It's funny. I was on the back channel. I had a question where I wanted to go back to something you had said at the very beginning, but you perfectly pivoted with that excellent question. And actually, with everything Jennifer and George had come and asked you about. I'm always curious. I mean, you said something, you know, kind of joking around a little bit about being a programming dork when you were 10 years old in Cleveland. And, you know, the the interesting thing about your story to me is that there was still kind of that gap for me of, OK, how do you go from being this 10 year old in Cleveland, Ohio? Apparently you are a programming dork. I want to understand what that meant to you. I was not a good programmer until I was a I was a computer enthusiast, you know, like there's there's a spectrum between like computer scientist and like I.T. person, you know, like it's sort of like the. The trade off between like an automotive engineer and a mechanic who can fix anything. You know, there's like this like kind of I definitely got into programming through just loving computers. You know, we were I didn't I basically like inherited a bunch of broken stuff from people that took pity on my my economically disadvantaged broken family. And so you just like you just fall in love with computers like I love computers. And then my I didn't I wasn't like, you know, every every teenager who loves computers is like, well, I should learn to program. Let me get a C++ book. And then you just fail because it's really hard to teach yourself C++. C++ is kind of a crazy language. And so I wasn't like Stanford is what taught me to be a good programmer. I needed that actually. So I got to Stanford. I was a crappy programmer. I was a premed for like the first year and a half in Stanford. I didn't know what I wanted to do. My big sister was a doctor and that sounded good. So like I bounced around a lot. I just like the one thing is just like I like taking apart computers and putting them back together and knowing how they work. I just couldn't program them because it was hard. Well, yeah, I'm not that's I'm a strategist, not a programmer myself. But and by the way, you use the term program, dork. I certainly was not calling you. Well, I was a dork. I just wasn't a dork. Fair enough. No, I think it's really interesting. I mean, I'm raising, you know, I'm raising kids here and some are farther along in their childhood than others. And I just always find it really interesting, you know, especially, you know, saying that, you know, you have your your sister and you had you you've talked about that. That it wasn't likely for you, either of you to be where you are today and that you've had to, you know, be positive and continue to move forward and have the self-awareness to know where you need to improve. And I think that we should be doing better in our own communities to help people who have this acumen that you have to be able to help the next generation of entrepreneurs like you. Thank you. I don't know if other folks had a connection problem with Katie or if that was my end, but I'll get cool. No, I did. I did. Sorry. You want to try that one more? Can you hear me now? Yes, we can. Okay. Yeah, because what I said was brilliant. So I'll restate it. It sounded very brilliant. Just it sounded slow. And it sounded like you were slurring your speech. And the matrix was assimilating you, I think. Yeah, exactly. Okay. Well, long story short, is there more that we can do in our own communities to help people, you know, who may be in underserved communities who have an acumen like yours? Are there organizations or are there things that we can do as a community to be better at helping the next generation of entrepreneurs? Yeah, that's a that's a tough one, honestly. Like I, I, you know, you talk to people and you see like everyone thinks about their community differently. Everybody like, you know, wants to give back in different ways and whatever. I, I frankly don't think I do enough if I'm being, you know, auto critical again. Like, for me, I, I really love, you know, like, trying to simplify hard things, I get so much satisfaction out of just like teaching. And so, you know, when I try to like meet, you know, like, brand new startup founders, and like, one of the nicest things that someone ever said to me, was like, that conversation that you had with me, like, saved me a year. And I started my startup. I was like, wow, like, I hope you do something with that year. You know, but like, in terms of like, you know, just the raw, like helping people who've had a really hard break or who, you know, are like structurally historically disadvantaged, like, I am, I don't think I'm a role model there at all. I don't, I don't do enough. I, I, I say that, you know, at some future section of my life, I will be aggressively trying to give back. And, you know, to my future children who may be listening, like, you're not getting an inheritance, like, whatever, like, I didn't have one, like, go figure something out. You know, but like, so, you know, but I, I'm just, if there's, there's a better version of me that makes time to like, actually go and like, serve the hungry. And that's not me. A great, I spend my weekends, like, trying to catch up on sleep, you know, and trying to like, keep my friendships alive. So I, I don't know, I'm not a, I'm not someone who can do it all from a make the world a better place. Like I intended to aggressively try and make the world a better place after this company, or, you know, maybe after I have a really great exec team around me. And, you know, I can find all this free time that all these other CEOs appear to have. Can I ask a follow up question there, Katie, on that, Ryan? Sure. Yeah. So, so I would say, and I agree with you, Ryan, you know, finding people give back differently. And as you said, it was, it was people who knew you giving you stuff. Like, I think a lot of people here come from tougher families. And I think that that tends to be why they're type A is because they don't want to be there. But, or that we see them here now, but, and giving back in different ways, whether it's just attention or telling, you know, for the kid level, telling them they can do better or wherever you are, when you're in a position to do that, just doing what you do and being in a role you're in. Is a way of being a guiding light post for people. I remember working with some people like law firms, but anyways, but I do. And people kind of hear this here and there on that. I struggle with the ethics coming out of Stanford and the people that a lot of the, the IP, you know, Silicon Valley area. And I do find you to be a super refreshing person on a lot of this, the accountability, doing things well, you know, making products that work that help people versus just there for the dollar. And maybe I'm tainted because I see a certain side of it, but I, I, I find Stanford and maybe other schools or people will be turning out a lot of people who don't have that sort of give back, respect, accountability, appreciation. And I'm working at that level just because you were at Stanford, right? So do you see any opportunities or need or even need, just from your perspective, need for more of that there, that level? I mean, I think a lot about, you know, the, the ethical, you know, implications and the criticism leveled against Silicon Valley, you know, broadly. And obviously Stanford is Silicon Valley, you know, Stanford created Silicon Valley, Fred Terman, you know, like, it's like, it's a, it is a valid, you know, metonym for Silicon Valley, which is itself, you know, metonym. But I, I think that, you know. Let me, let me tell you a little bit more because I want to not, not make it sound like I just don't like the, I want to put it like I see big SEC violations. Like I'm going way out there and the VC thing until you make it like the Theranos level. So that's not rare. So, or maybe it's because I hang out, you know, SEC enforcers. You have a cool set of peers, I think, in legal that are essentially, you know, the, the, the, yeah, the enforcers on these things, maybe. But we're seeing the more egregious, we're seeing more egregious. And so it, from your perspective, I don't know if my perspective is amplified or concentrated or something, but, but yeah, so sorry. But I think what's going on here though, is like, like what happened, like zooming out to like society, you know, economics, like geopolitics here is that like, there's a lot of capital in the world. All right. And it's like chasing growth. All right. And when a ton of gigantic money fire hose hits something, it gets weird. All right. And so the Valley has been here, you know, since like, you know, like the radio stuff, defense stuff in the fifties, it had a really cool hippie streak. Like that ethos is real. Okay. It's just that like, it got hit by this gigantic globalization, you know, cheap capital, you know, I don't know, federal reserve, something, something, something thing. And that like the, the, the sheer amount of money that rushed into the Valley, because honestly, the Valley was driving all this change in the world. Like the world is very different than it was 40 years ago. And a lot of that was just downstream of technological change, much of which was pioneered here. Uh, you know, it's like, this is, this is like, you know, ground zero for creative destruction, you know? And so, and honestly, like too much money chasing too few growth opportunities. And so what that does is it, it, it, it, it, it makes it weird. It's like dumping a tremendous amount of like lighter fluid on a small fire, you know? And, and so it's, I think it, it brings in, you know, the, the worst impulses and people, honestly, frankly, the worst people in a lot of ways, like the people who are obsessed with like, you know, like getting rich quick, you know, people that are obsessed with status. Right. Like I, I should major in the thing that, you know, at Stanford that, uh, gets the most respect as opposed to what I actually love doing. Like computer science, for example, is by far the most popular major at Stanford now. And it's not like everyone discovered that they love computers. It's that you get a really good job and everyone thinks you're real smart if you major in it. When I was an undergrad, that was called, you know, uh, like management science and engineering and econ because everyone wanted to go be iBankers and stuff and, and, and work at McKinsey. That was where the people that were strivers, status lovers went. All right. And that's okay. You know, cool. God, you know, created the ambitious people too, you know, and I'm not unambitious. It's just that like, I hope you get across what drives me is like the love for what I love and who I am. And that is not true for a lot of people because a lot of people don't know who they are and they don't love who they love, you know, like who they are and they don't know what they love. They just don't know what they want. They just want to be rich and important. Right. And that's a pretty constant part of human nature. It's just that moths to the flame, you know, with regards to like money and progress and change. And so it brings a lot of the like least savory aspects of modern capitalism, which I think is what you're seeing, you know, but like the valley underneath it, there's still so many people helping each other. There's still so many people who actually really believe in what they're doing. You know, it's not, it might not be like make the world a better place, but it's people who believe in the project that they have started. Right. Right. Like, so it's, but there's also a lot of people who are like, let me tell you about my whatever, like web three thing that will totally make everybody a billionaire in two minutes. I was about to say, can't we have some NFTs for status of the service? Isn't that what they are? But anyways, totally kidding. Totally kidding. But I wanted to just drill down on some of those. Because again, like I'm weighing in with you on this. And the history of Silicon Valley is phenomenal. And that whole sort of hippie ethos and, you know, back when they were turning the orange groves into tech companies. And if you read the history of it, and back to what you were saying earlier, Ryan, about about really enjoying history, those stories are phenomenal. And those are great people. And I think what where you landed it with me was where you said moss to a flame that we've brought in a lot of stuff. That's not that anymore. And it's more of the status of the service. It's one thing to bring money in and throw it at that type of growth. But that's not what we're doing necessarily. And I'm not again, I love what Silicon Valley's done. And even if you look at the government funding and everything else, I think it's still great in the history of it. It's just more, I would put in the past 10 years, I was talking to a friend at the SEC. And I'm like, do you see an uptick in the past 10 years in these ethical issues? Like, I mean, literally lying. And more of like not to fake it until you make it, but like saying we have it when you don't. Like I have a technology and it does AI enable blah, blah, blah, blah. And VC is going great, here's your check. And I've literally witnessed that. And so I wouldn't believe it if I wasn't there. So I like your analogy of Moss to a Flame. It's bringing in different stuff. And I think maybe globalization will be something that kind of evens things out a little bit or tempers out a little bit or at least national moving things elsewhere. But yeah, interesting. So that's your ethics and how you look at accountability and self-awareness and that stuff is I think that versus just the computer science, which is phenomenal. But that's the stuff to hopefully push down and mentor people or push out to your peers. Yeah. We're all doing. Many of us are all doing our best. No, you are. You are. And I'm like, I'm just, yeah, just being there and being you is really good. But yeah, so thanks. This is a cool conversation. It absolutely is. It absolutely is. And thanks for being you, Ryan. Thanks for sharing. So if there's anybody that has any questions I want to jump up our stage and ask Ryan, feel free to raise your hand. We'll bring you up. If you want to put in the chat, we'll read it off. Ryan, you don't like business books. What kind of books do you like reading? Oh, to be clear, I really deeply want to like business books. It's just I can't. You know, like there's like a handful I like, you know, but I just I need to escape from the job. And like my Kindle is that. So it's like, you know, chasing liquor with beer. I just can't do it, you know. So, yeah, so I mean, the books that I love, I basically read about like the past or the future, generally. Like I like I like history and I like sci-fi. But I also, yeah, I like their associated versions of that. I'm a big fan of, you know, like geopolitics and geography and things like that as well. I like biographies. Ryan, he wants titles. Tomas wants titles because he has them in his stack. He has about 30. I think he has 60 books in his stack right now. He has a layer in for the same reason. I do. He wants titles. I do like some good. I do like some good titles because I do need to add to my reading list. You know, Ryan, I drive about three hours a day. I see. I don't have going on how I have coming. I knock out books really, really quickly on. I'm not going to say I read them. I listen to them. They're read to me. Excellent. So, yeah, I can throw out some recommendations. Some of them you'll be like, that's boring. Some of them you'll be like, that's dorky. Right now I'm finally like enjoying like, you know, Brandon Sanderson for the first time. On the nonfiction side, I'm reading a book called Dominion, which is about like Dominion, how the Christian revolution made the world. It's just like a let's do some interesting analysis on the impact of like Judeo-Christian culture on the last, you know, 3000 years. I like that book a lot. Let's see. Yeah, like I said, I read, you know, Diplomacy by Kissinger on my honeymoon. It's actually really deeply worth reading. I mean, Kissinger is obviously polarizing, but he's one of the few people that is simultaneously like a primary and a secondary source. You know, he's like a legit academic. But for much of what he's talking about, he was in the room. You know, he can be like, here's, you know, what was driving China in the 70s. And here's what Mao smelled like. And there aren't that many writers that can do both. You know, like the it's a part memoir, part, you know, actual textbook. And that's just awesome. I read a really nerdy book on my honeymoon as well. I read like four books on my honeymoon because we went to Fiji and we were completely off the grid. And it was awesome. I read a book called The Horse, The Wheel, and Language, which is like an interesting kind of like anthropology and archaeology hybrid book, kind of tracing what we know and might be able to deduce about like the common ancestor of like, you know, the common linguistic ancestor. Essentially, you know, every every language that is, you know, Proto-Indo-European based. So like almost all the European languages, you know, like Persian, you know, Indy, all these things. Right. They're all they're all children of the same language that was spoken by people in eastern Ukraine like 6000 years ago. It's fascinating. I read The Guns of August, Barbara Tuchman, like I really like dry history books, although Barbara Tuchman is amazing. And then I've read a bunch of really great sci fi. It's a super weird book I read a couple months ago called The City in the City by China Meville, which is just it's technically the genre is like weird sci fi. And that like the premise of it is that there are two cities that physically occupy the same space. But like it's sort of like a like a mosaic of like block by block of like this is in this one city and this is in this other city. And they're in two countries that are like not, you know, actually friendly with each other. And so it's like, you know, can can two different people in two different societies occupy the same space? And is all of society and nationalism and self-identity like a total social hallucination? So it's a real weird book. But yeah, I hope you're getting exactly what you asked for with this question. I warned you. Good stuff, man. Good stuff. Thank you for that. There's one I highly recommend anybody who's got a lot of patience and deeply loves history. There's a guy called Will Durant who basically wrote like some people really know him, but he's like unfortunately kind of like I think fallen out of a lot of popular memory. He like won the, you know, I think the Pulitzer and he won the presidential medal of freedom from from I think like Kennedy or Carter or something. But he's just this incredibly amazing humanist historian that basically wrote a book, you know, a series of books called The Story of Civilization that kind of just covers as much of humanity as as any one person can possibly cover. And his writing is just beautiful. And he was writing basically between I think like the 20s and the 70s. And he and his wife, Will and Ariel, like they co-wrote a lot of it together. And it's just if you want to just take a tour through like what happened, but also like snippets of like the philosophy and the poetry and this like it is like woven together by this like beautifully like mature, profound, without being sanctimonious, just like beautiful humanist writer. Who's just he just has a perspective on on the entire human condition that just comes across and like like just like love and patience and just fascination with all people. I can't recommend these things highly enough. So the one that I read recently is The Age of Faith, which picks up at Constantine and ends in basically the Renaissance and the Reformation. And it's just amazing. So highly recommend Will Durant. So I'm hearing I'm hearing like more trolls with the grammar there, which is awesome. And the I'm hoping he likes attorneys more than what's his name? It's the author of Sapiens, who hates attorneys. Oh, you've all know whatever. A bunch of people have told me I would like that book, but I've never I tend to like not like anything that is currently popular because I'm a jerk. I think. Sapiens is good. I don't know my second book. But to Tomas's point, it weighs as much as a brick. And I did an audible, which made it a lot better, except for the fact that he doesn't like attorneys. But that is perfect. No, those are great recommendations. Thank you. I kind of have a follow up question, Ryan. Kind of speaking of geopolitical interests, you mentioned earlier on to you got into this business that you're in now a little bit because of 2016 election, fraudulent email or communication, the human condition. How does that kind of impact the way that you even started your company now and are running your company in terms of the geopolitical implications of what you're doing as a company? Interesting. That's a great question. I mean, I think a lot of people really want CEOs to go straight to like straight up moral value leadership at all times. It's sort of like, hey, like I work at your company. Like, what are your thoughts on random divisive social issue? And so I try to be like, I'm not like, you know, your moral leader on every single issue. So like, I try to like, just talk about the ones that are relevant to the company, frankly. Like, you can go to a community meeting or, you know, go to your house of worship if you really want to have deep conversations about all this stuff. But when it comes to geopolitics, I think that is relevant for security and information, right? Even just the internet itself, like the world kind of got real flat in the like, you know, Tom Friedman sense, you know, in the 90s. And you can say, you know, when it died, maybe, I don't know, like, you know, Trump tariffs, you know, Russian invasion of Ukraine, this whole like, you know, gigantic global consensus seems to be fracturing. Even the like, you know, I want my EU data stored in the EU, like the internet was supposed to like, erase borders. It was supposed to just make it so like, we're one human species and one kind of mystical collective cyber consciousness or whatever, you know, the internet doesn't care where you are, you know, maybe there's like, you know, your ping time goes up or whatever. And so there's kind of this gradual, like fracturing of that. And it kind of feels like the Tower of Babel is coming down a little bit. And so, and I think a lot of the assumptions on, you know, where data lives, what it can be done, like what can be trusted are being challenged, right? Like, you know, we have a lot of customers that had, you know, significant business in Russia and needed our help to like, understand what was going on with their business. And like, you know, they're divesting and these big policy changes are happening and whatever. So you really can't get away from it. You know, information is power and power is geopolitics, you know, depending on what school of IR you live in. So, so when it comes to our company, you know, the, the principles that we operate on are a one, like everyone deserves privacy for it straight up. You know, it's not like we got into it because the 2016 election, but it wasn't like, so that Trump can never get elected again. Like that's a society wide conversation. I am, but a lowly technology provider, you know, like that's, you know, this is a democracy. Like, you know, if we can keep it and when I don't, I don't need to get into politics, but like no one should have their email leaked online. Like privacy is important regardless of where you are on some silly left, right spectrum. You know, like what else is, is, is individuality and freedom, if not the ability to have your own thoughts, you know, and to keep them secret. So like, that's, that's one that really drives us. Right. You know, people should be able to use technology without having to constantly worry about it. There's a promise that I think it's, it's up to the security industry in particular to help technology fulfill, which is that use this thing and you will be more productive. Your life will be better. Your life will be easier. Right. That is what technology, not, not just computers, but like a washing machine is supposed to help your life. You know, it's supposed to allow you to use that time and that effort on something that is more meaningful. Right. And so, uh, I always call it cyber security, like the cleanup crew for the rest of the technology industry, because technology, you know, anyone who like reads any of our like blogs or manifestos or something will see this. But like, you know, technology spreads and changes because it's useful, right? Like, oh, wow. It would be kind of handy, you know, to be able to have a social network with everyone in the whole world. That's kind of cool. That's useful. I can keep in touch with all my friends. And then like five years later, we're like, oops, it amplifies hate groups and like wrecks democracy in certain cases. Like, oops, you know, so like the unintended consequences of, wow, that would be useful are kind of where, where cyber security and policy comes into play, you know, or like, hey, if you're going to be a I mean, it would be cool if I could tie these three systems together and then, you know, authentication breaks and you can hack it and whatever, you know, it's like these, these, like these interactions just sort of happen. So I think there's like a pretty strong, like moral basis for cyber security, which is I want you to have the good parts of technology without it exploding in your face. And so I, I, I think that actually is more than enough motivation for me. And, and honestly, like that, that answers a lot of the geopolitical geopolitical aspects for me, too, which is I'm not going to be like, rah, rah, rah America, but it's like, well, America stands for like, you know, like change and technology and progress, but also for individuality and freedom, which I think are real. And it's an ongoing project, you know, and, and so I, I don't know. It's just interesting. I'm going to jump on that. I'm going to jump on that one. This is going to have to be a separate room because I know these guys want to shut this down soon, but it's privacy versus, and people don't understand privacy versus security versus, one is control versus ownership with your data. So where is it being shared? So you, you don't have to own it, but you do need to control where it's going. So as you said, with the emails being shared, you don't want those shared without your permission or knowledge or something else. So there was data about people. When you guys go in that direction is that's kind of forefront with what's going on. People's data and Europe and GDPR is not as protective as people think. And then you've got a disinformation and then back to your earlier computer analogy, the amplification. So I connect with you on LinkedIn. So I'll follow up with you there, but would love to talk to you more about that stuff. Maybe have you come in. We do a law and policy side of that stuff. Like where is this stuff going? And right now we're tracking in, you know, we're tracking into the elections and I have some people who are on disinformation. So we'll be doing disinformation rooms going into the election. It's kind of to help people follow this because this is the world we live in now. You're not going to not be on any media or digital, like what you're looking at, as you said, and we're, you've got pretty much speech versus amplification of disinformation, yada, yada. So it's just helping people understand this world and helping them navigate it. And then you're doing it in the technical sense to help protect them. So I'll reach out to you. Thanks. Cool. Cool. All right. Look, it is, it is getting close to the, to the end of the, this evening's segment. I do want to be respectful for everybody's time, especially yours, Ryan. I do know you're busy CEO, making things happen, doing good things. And then, you know, we've got a lot of folks, you know, some folks getting ready for the start of their, of their busy time. You know, football season. I'm not sure. I was going to say, I was going to plug the time. I had a lot of people reschedule on me because of their fantasy football drafts. And I assume that's, that's, that's you're doing. So. So, um, and this, did we get Kelly, by the way? I don't know if I missed Kelly. Did Kelly speak? She has not. No. Yeah. Oh, all right. Kelly, go ahead, Kelly. Thank you so much. I will be brief. I could geek out on this, like for hours and hours. So Ryan, it's awesome to hear you talk about the social side, especially in terms of like sociology, anthropology, you know, culture, shared values. Um, I, when I picked up on something, uh, you mentioned kind of marketing and sales and marketing with kind of shoddy aspects of things when you're looking at technology, I don't want to quote you specifically. Um, I, I'm curious if you look at it from an MVP perspective. Uh, I think that, you know, initially in like 1.0, 2.0, it was really pushed the MVP. Do you see now, um, where it's not about this race? It's about doing it the right way, you know, and having that, you know, really like the cyber hardware, you know, architecture. Uh, and so do you think there's a disconnect between like sales marketing products, Dev trying to do it from an MVP aspect, as opposed to how, um, you know, a security company or back office more would handle that? Hopefully that makes sense. I think, I think I understand. And I, I'm self-conscious about being super long-winded here. So I'll try and be somewhat concise. Uh, but when I hear people talk about like, you know, MVPs and whatever, usually what they're trying to figure out is. Do I need to build? Uh, like how much is enough? You know, was my vision correct? It's all about like, kind of like validation. Uh, and so I, I'm not like sales and marketing come into it because they obviously help you like generate demand and capture that and build a viable business that can stand on its own. But like, when I'm trying, when I have people ask me like, you know, what, what, what is my MVP? You know, what, how do I do this? You know, I'm just like, well, um, it's, it's really like about making software and making technology that solves people's problems period. And you can, the second you start, you know, the, the, the, the value of the problem that you're solving for somebody exceeds the friction and the cost of, of, you know, implementing the solution. Uh, it makes sense for them to work with you. It just does. It just does. So like how much is enough, you know, is it, is it, and that's relative to the size of the problem and the friction of your solution and the differentiation of your solution to a problem. Right. So like anyone who's trying to like design a software company or, or, or, or a new business that isn't thinking like, you know, whose problems am I solving and how hard and valuable and complex are those problems and how, you know, how easy to swallow is the pill that I'm creating for these problems. You know, like you have to think in terms of these, of these, these, these attributes. And so, uh, I, I'm, I'm usually just like, usually folks are either overthinking it or they're not solving a real problem. And they don't like, they're, they're, they're making a medicine for a non-existent sickness, you know, uh, or they're focused on like getting users and making the graph go up into the right. And it's like, well, that's why I don't do consumer. I do, you know, B2B or enterprise software, cause enterprise software is about solving problems. Uh, but yeah, just always, always try and have a handle on like the problems and the value that, you know, what you're, what you're actually working on can, can, can solve and create respectively. And so you like, just, just do enough. Um, and if, if you're sure that it's enough, uh, and all you need to do is get better at communicating it to somebody, uh, like you have this problem. Here is the solution to your problem. Here's why you should do it. Like, that's also a skill that you need to practice. Like I, I see all these founders that think their solution sells itself. I mean, just don't know how to explain. This is the problem I am solving, or these are the set of problems I'm solving. This is how I am solving it. And this is what it would look like to work with me to solve your problems. And it is, it is wild how few people attempt to practice that specific skill. You have to get it right on the basics of like problem solution, differentiation, whatever. But you also have to get good at explaining it to people because people are busy, you know? So, um, did that sort of, yeah. Okay. I saw the thing start saying thank you on my screen. Cool. All right. And now we're at 6 32 and I feel even worse. No, you're fine. You're fine. You're absolutely fine. Um, Kelly, hopefully that answered your question. I do see you saying thank you with the little, uh, animated GIF or GIF or whatever we call it these days. Yeah. You're a CISO. You can call it whatever you want. You got responsibility. Thank you. Thank you. All right. Look, um, it is, it is, uh, close to the end. So, uh, we're not gonna sort of, uh, we're not going to, uh, bring any new, any more folks up to stage. Hopefully you all enjoyed the conversation. Uh, I do want to make a very, very quick, uh, just a very quick announcement before we sort of, uh, wrap up and why am I struggling with the clubhouse app right now? I don't know. Uh, man. Oh man. You know, this is probably why we need to move over to, uh, LinkedIn audio. Um, so maybe soon. Um, so if again, so, uh, I do encourage you all, we do this every single Wednesday, uh, again, for about an hour and a half. Uh, I encourage you all to tune back in next week, Wednesday, September 14th. We'll have, uh, Nick Stamos, Nicholas Stamos, who's the founder and CEO. So in the, in the stretch of another, another CEO and founder. So it should be a really good conversation. He's the founder and CEO of eShare. Uh, so tune back in next week for that conversation. Um, if you missed the large majority of today's conversation, don't worry. We have a replay. Uh, you can catch the replay. Uh, as soon as we end the room, it'll be available for you to catch up on what you missed. Cause you really missed a good one. If you, if you just joined us. So sorry about that, but you can catch us on catch the replay. Uh, so with that, uh, mods, any final words for, for Ryan, before I get to our last question. Hey, Ryan, I was just going to say really enjoyed this time with you and I wish you all the very best. Thank you. Yeah. Thanks for carving out the time. Yeah. Tons of fun. Yeah. Tons of fun. Yeah. Tons of fun. Yeah. Yeah. It was really great. I was afraid to say something cause I was afraid I was still in the matrix, but, uh, pleasure, pleasure meeting you tonight, Ryan. Thank you for spending the time. You made it out of the matrix. Clear. Yeah. There, Katie, you're good. So Ryan, this is the last question I usually like to ask our guests. Um, and it's probably a reflection question. So I don't, I don't think you, you, uh, well, it's, it's a reflection question. I think you're still relatively young in your life, young in your career and young in your, in, in your growth, uh, as a CEO. So this is a question along the lines of, if you have one piece of advice for the younger Ryan, what would it be? And why? Oh man. Uh, I, I think I'd probably tell the younger version. I'm 35, uh, I think. Yeah. That still sounds right. Um, so I, I'd probably tell, uh, the younger, I may be like 20, 24 year old me or whatever, like, you know, take, take your time, but like, you know, also trust your gut. You know, it's like, I, I realized I started to build instincts that I did not trust until I was like in my early thirties. You know, I think you, like you gradually start learning to listen to yourself, even when you can't totally explain it. So I think I would, I probably urge the younger version of me to be more patient, but also to like, learn to also trust your gut. You know, cause I, I don't think most of the things that feel wrong are probably wrong or at least wrong for you. You know, uh, that's great advice. Look, I'm, I'm 30, I'm 36. So I'm just a year older than you, Ryan. Uh, you know, let me, let me stop before the other moderators, uh, beat me, beat me down. Yeah. We're talking about misinformation here. Sorry. I was, I was, I was choking. I was choking. I was choking. I was just gonna say, I have no idea who, who this Perry Mason person is. And I don't know why Jennifer keeps bringing that person's name up. I don't know who they are. Ryan never heard of them before. Is that like an influencer on, on, on, on Instagram? Absolutely. That is right. Uh, he was, he influenced a lot of people to become attorneys. Uh, he was, he influenced a lot of people to become attorneys. Uh, when he was, uh, on the TV screen. But, uh, look, it's been, it's been a pleasure. Uh, thank you for, for taking the time and for, you know, um, taking the time out of your day and to, to, uh, to being part of our, our sort of a fireside chat. And to agree to doing this, uh, you know, I, I, I definitely appreciate you agreeing to doing this and spending that time. Thank you so much for having me. This is really fun. It beats, beats my average in by a lot. There you go. So I'll leave the final words for you to bring us home. Wait, you left the final words for me, but then you mute yourself. Yeah. I left the final words for you to bring us home. It's all yours, Ron. Oh, that's a lot. That's a lot of pressure. Uh, all right. Well, what, what would Edward R. Murrow say? Uh, good night and good luck. All right. We'll just do that. Awesome. Good night and good luck. Everybody have a great rest of your week. Uh, don't forget if you're football fans, you got the football season started up tomorrow. Please tune in. Uh, see everybody. Thanks Ryan. Thanks everybody. Bye. Bye. Night everybody. Don't forget to set your fantasy lineup.