Fireside Chat w/George Kamide Sr. Dir & Host of First Watch

[00:00:00] Hello, hello. Thank you for joining our weekly fireside chat. [00:00:07] Hope everybody's doing okay. We will get started in about three minutes. What's up, George? [00:00:17] Quick microphone check for you. How you doing? [00:00:20] All right. How's it going? Let me pause. Hey, how's that? [00:00:25] Sounds a little bit better, yeah. Good. Cool, cool, cool. [00:00:30] All right. Cool, cool. Let me get the room set up and then we will get started. [00:00:35] I'm on the West Coast today and time zone almost got me. I was like, wait, it's not 8pm Pacific time. [00:00:47] It's 5pm Pacific time. Let me just get this room set up and then we'll give some folks time to join us. [00:00:54] If you're tuning in, just hang tight. We will get started in about three minutes or so. [00:01:01] How's your week going so far, George? [00:01:04] Oh, you know, startup land. Every week is getting shot out of a cannon. [00:01:09] Yeah. I hear you, man. It's definitely busy. It feels like there's a lot going on. [00:01:21] Yeah, man. There's a lot. [00:01:24] I don't know. I don't know why there's so much going on. I don't know why. I don't know if anything, if it'll ease up at all. [00:01:34] In the world of just cyber, just to go out of just cyber in general. It's like so many things happening. [00:01:41] And work is definitely picking up on all fronts. [00:01:47] Yeah, defending complexity. I don't know if it's going anywhere anytime soon. [00:01:54] Lisa Beth, how are you? [00:01:56] Hey, hey. Happy Wednesday. [00:02:00] Happy Wednesday indeed. And I do see Katie. Hey, Katie. Quick microphone check for you. [00:02:06] Hey. [00:02:07] Hey. [00:02:08] Well, there it is. Hey. [00:02:09] There it is. Hello. [00:02:10] Yeah. [00:02:11] I was just in a really intense conversation in another room. We were doing the, I was in one of the security mindset ones where we were talking about how people are spying on you in the world. [00:02:24] So I feel a little bit, a little more intense and honestly, George, perfect timing because it's what makes me think more about multi-channel communication. That's for sure. [00:02:34] Yeah. There are, there are more doors, more windows. [00:02:38] Terrifying. It's terrifying. So yeah, I was a little more intense. You're not wrong. That's why. [00:02:45] Man, it sounded like you kicked down the door. You're like, Hey. [00:02:48] I'm like, Hey, hi. [00:02:50] I'm like, well, Hey, Katie. [00:02:52] Yeah. [00:02:53] Yeah. [00:02:54] Terrifying conversation happening about the state of our safety and privacy. [00:02:59] Yeah. [00:03:00] I was, I was out and about and I got the notification Katie that you were talking in that room. And I was like, I'm going to pass on that one. [00:03:10] I saw the, I just tuned in and I saw that that room was going on. I wanted to jump in to listen, but then I figured, Hey, it's probably a good idea. Let me start this one before I get into that one. [00:03:22] But I can't wait to hit a playback on that one. I'm sure it was pretty. [00:03:26] Yeah. [00:03:27] There were no replays on that one tonight. [00:03:29] Oh, I missed a good one. [00:03:31] I mean, that would, that would sort of defeat the purpose of conversation about privacy. [00:03:36] But I'm, but I am glad the replays around in this one tonight. [00:03:42] Cause I know a lot of people that will want to hear this replay for sure. [00:03:46] I'm going to try to keep it clean. [00:03:48] I normally curse like a sailor, but keep it profesh. [00:03:52] Right. [00:03:53] Right. [00:03:54] I think I got the room set up. [00:03:56] We got some chat about some mentorship. [00:03:59] I think we've got some mentorship stuff going on, some chill vibes and some networking. [00:04:03] I think those are some interesting topics. [00:04:05] Russell Eubanks, Russell, quick microphone check for you, my friend. [00:04:10] That's good. [00:04:11] Sounds good. [00:04:12] So this is our weekly fireside chat. [00:04:17] Why don't we, why don't we get started? [00:04:20] It's our weekly fireside chat. [00:04:22] I'm sure folks will follow in as they, as they move from room to room. [00:04:28] If it's the first time you just joined us or you're joining us, we do this every single Wednesday for about an hour and a half or so. [00:04:35] We usually like to ask our guests questions. [00:04:37] We'll ask them questions for about 30 to 40 minutes, and then we'll open up for the audience to raise a hand and join in on the conversation. [00:04:46] We do have a few very quick sort of, I'll call them guardrails for the conversation. [00:04:51] If you're a vendor in the audience, please, we ask that you don't try to sell us on your product today. [00:04:57] We use this as an opportunity to really learn more about our guests. [00:05:01] In this case, we've got George Comiti. [00:05:03] And hopefully I got that right, but George will correct me in a minute. [00:05:06] No, that was perfect. [00:05:08] Oh, wow. [00:05:09] Look at that. [00:05:10] All right, man. [00:05:11] So, you know, we'll learn more about our guest, George, and he'll take us through his journey, which I'm really interested in hearing. [00:05:18] And then we'll, as I mentioned, we'll open up for questions. [00:05:21] So there's a little greenhouse on the top left of your screen. [00:05:23] If you're not a member of our fireside chat, you can click that and join our fireside chat club here on Clubhouse. [00:05:28] What does that do? [00:05:29] Well, it lets you see who's up on the schedule for upcoming shows. [00:05:35] As I mentioned, we do this every single Wednesday. [00:05:38] And it also allows you to go back in time and listen to the playback for some of the conversations that you may have missed from some leaders in the industry that you probably are interested in hearing more about. [00:05:48] So without further ado, I will actually I will say one of the things, at least for me, my comments and opinions are not representative of my current or prior employer. [00:05:58] They are my own opinions and thoughts and comments. [00:06:01] So please keep that in mind. [00:06:02] I'm not here on behalf of representing any particular company. [00:06:06] So without further ado, I'm just gonna go around the room and introduce myself and I'll let others introduce themselves. [00:06:12] Judge, we'll leave you for last. [00:06:13] So I'm Tomas Maldonado and in my day job, I'm the CISO for the NFL. [00:06:18] Lisa Beth, over to you. [00:06:19] Hi, hi everyone. [00:06:21] My name is Lisa Beth Lentine Walker. [00:06:24] I am a compliance ethics and corporate governance consultant and I run a firm. [00:06:31] I like to teach in my free time and I'm excited to have George here today. [00:06:37] I'll turn it over to Katie. [00:06:39] Hi, good evening, everybody. [00:06:41] I'm Katie Hanahan. [00:06:42] I'm the vice president of cybersecurity strategy for a boutique SI out of Chicago. [00:06:47] I also run our VC sub program and I am a former guest of George Comedi, the podcast, which I was one of my very first recording live in-person podcasts after the pandemic. [00:07:03] So I'm excited to have him now as my guest. [00:07:06] I get to ask him all the hard questions tonight. [00:07:09] So it's so thankful to have you here, George. [00:07:11] Over to you, Russell. [00:07:12] And I think you were a guest as well, Russell. [00:07:14] So now we get to flip the tables on George. [00:07:17] Over to you, Russell. [00:07:18] I do. [00:07:19] It's so great to see and hear everyone this evening. [00:07:22] Russell, you make sure. [00:07:24] And it's true back at RSA in real life. [00:07:27] I got to spend time with George on his podcast. [00:07:31] You make been in cyber for a long time. [00:07:34] The last two and a half years been running my company, Security Ever After, where I help cyber security professionals get promoted. [00:07:40] And this week from remote location, I'm privileged to teach this week for the U.S. Army in Augusta, Georgia. [00:07:46] So super cool and been looking forward to this conversation for a long time. [00:07:51] Back over to you, Tomas. [00:07:52] Right. [00:07:53] I'm not sure if everybody can hear me okay if I'm breaking up or if Russell is breaking up. [00:08:00] But George, happy to have you in the proverbial hot seat, if you will. [00:08:06] As you can tell, there's folks that you've interviewed and had the opportunity to interview it. [00:08:11] And they're very interested and curious about hearing your story. [00:08:14] So why don't you take a moment to introduce yourself to our audience here? [00:08:17] And while you're going through that introduction, why don't you tell us a little bit about your origin story? [00:08:22] And feel free to take as much time as you like. [00:08:25] Yeah. [00:08:26] So I am normally very uncomfortable talking about myself. [00:08:31] I am the inquisitor, not the inquisitee. [00:08:34] But yeah, about me, I'm a senior director at a cybersecurity startup called Safeguard Cyber. [00:08:43] My title is kind of deliberately vague because in the startup land, there is more work than there are people. [00:08:50] So there are a lot of hats. [00:08:52] I work with the sales team. [00:08:56] I work with the marketing team. [00:08:58] I have in the past written the research papers. [00:09:00] When I got there, I was employee number 12. [00:09:02] So I was doing a lot. [00:09:04] But yeah, it's been a wild ride. [00:09:08] And I appreciate the opportunity to address the room, I guess. [00:09:16] I knew this question was coming because I've been coming to this room for a year. [00:09:19] So I had a lot of time to think about the origin story. [00:09:23] Yeah, I guess I don't have a conventional path in cyber. [00:09:29] And I'm getting used to the idea that there is no conventional path of all the people I've interviewed. [00:09:35] I've not encountered one who has some kind of linear path. [00:09:38] And so I think that might be the exception rather than the rule. [00:09:44] Yeah, so I guess I've always danced with computers and technology and it's sort of been in the background. [00:09:51] It wasn't until much later in life that I either a got a real job or be got one in technology. [00:10:00] So I am the son of an immigrant. [00:10:05] I was born in Brazil. [00:10:08] And to and my dad grew up in Brazil and then we came to the States. [00:10:13] And I really remember what it was like growing up as a mixed race immigrant in Reagan's America. [00:10:25] It was not a friendly time. [00:10:26] My dad was really qualified and educated, had sort of raised himself up from nothing. [00:10:35] And but he couldn't get a job. [00:10:38] He was always working, you know, as a line cook, because basically if you have any kind of accent in the 80s, they just weren't going to give you the job that you were applying for. [00:10:48] But this is all to say that he had a vision that I only now realize took for granted that, you know, computers were the future. [00:10:59] And so eventually we settled in the northern Virginia suburbs around D.C. [00:11:07] Both my parents went to work for various levels of the government where I guess they didn't fear people with accents because they needed their expertise. [00:11:14] And, you know, in northern Virginia, you had a lot of it's easy to rag on it. [00:11:23] It's very suburban, but you have a lot of people with a lot of expertise in very early stages of technology. [00:11:30] You know, you have people who came out of DARPA. [00:11:33] You have universities that were getting online very, very early. [00:11:38] And, you know, some of my first memories are at my best friend's house, you know, playing with the ham radio. [00:11:45] And then, you know, another year, the monochrome computer and getting on the bulletin board. [00:11:52] If anyone remembers those, you know, this is like the screen was all orange. [00:11:57] And I don't know what the value of the bulletin board was other than to say, does anyone have this book? [00:12:01] But I remember him showing it off to me. [00:12:07] He was like, this is like connected to whatever. [00:12:10] It was probably like a 14-4 modem back then. [00:12:13] And I remember thinking like, you know, I'd ask no that that person works at the university. [00:12:25] And he's like, well, it's just like connected to me. [00:12:27] I don't know. I remained suspicious pretty early on. [00:12:31] But the next part of the next chapter is, you know, again, my parents doubling down on the investment. [00:12:39] And they found some lady who gave computer classes out of her house, of all things. [00:12:46] I think I was seven or eight. [00:12:48] And, you know, I was learning QBasic and these other things. [00:12:55] I think, Tomas, you shared a story a couple of weeks back. [00:12:58] I think when Kendrick Trotter was asking you, I had a similar experience in school with the first computers, [00:13:08] where they, you know, you coded the snake and or the worm or whatever it was, you know, like move left three, move right, you know, five. [00:13:17] And I took what I had learned from this lady whose name I can't remember now, what I had learned about loops and QBasic. [00:13:28] And I went ahead and just straight up put it in the computer and pretty much broke it because the snake just did a straight line and had to restart the computer because it turns out I put it in like an infinite loop. [00:13:40] So it just would it took up all the processing power of that poor little box, whatever that computer was. [00:13:47] But yeah, so my I mean, we can fast forward to I think like eventually I became, you know, like that kid that everyone knows. [00:13:58] It's like, oh, you know, George, he's good with computers. [00:14:00] He can fix all the shit that's broken all the time. [00:14:02] Not true, but I think I I persisted enough. [00:14:07] And this is still early days. Windows three, Windows 3.1 was like a big release. [00:14:13] And then we fast forward, I think, to probably I want to say 1994, 95. [00:14:21] My dad comes home and just like a huge stack of HTML for dummies. [00:14:26] And he's like, you got to learn this. And I was like, what? [00:14:30] And he's like, this is the future. [00:14:32] And that is a point that I come back to all the time. [00:14:36] Totally took it for granted. I don't really learn well from. [00:14:42] Well, let me say that again. I read a lot, but I love reading. [00:14:46] But like the practical application, I just I mean, I can look at an HTML book, but I got to like start getting fingers on keys really early on. [00:14:56] And then anyway, I started messing around with HTML. [00:15:02] I still had a little bit of programming. I never really had the hard yen for coding, but I remember taking this advanced calculus class, which was a terrible idea in retrospect. [00:15:13] But, you know, being able to code equations into the TI 86 calculator, if anyone remembers those, to like help me get through derivatives a little bit faster. [00:15:25] And again, I don't think that I I was just like saturated in this world. [00:15:30] And I didn't really think of that as like technology or some application of technology was just, I guess, that hacker mentality of like, I'm just going to get this done faster. [00:15:40] But after I learned HTML, I went to I started doing front end web design. [00:15:47] This is before you had Dreamweaver before you had like the drop and drag WYSIWYG editors. [00:15:55] I mean, you had to like code the HTML and you had to like mess it up and make sure you didn't have like green font on blue background because that's idiotic. [00:16:03] Or like, you know, moving stars all over everything. [00:16:08] But eventually that led to like a summer job at the State Department. [00:16:13] If you guys know anything about the State Department, there's the Foreign Service, which is like everyone who gets sent over. [00:16:20] It's like everyone from embassy staff to attache is whatever. [00:16:24] So my mom worked in the Foreign Service Institute, which trains foreign service officers. [00:16:29] And I got a gig there on contract for the summer to help them build some stuff. [00:16:34] And at the time, you know, this is like pre 2000. [00:16:39] I mean, this is like a summer job that was paying like 15 an hour, which was like extraordinary. [00:16:45] I wasn't, you know, in the mall working at Auntie Anne's pretzels or something. [00:16:50] And then every year I would go back and my mom would just be like, just ask for more money because you have the experience. [00:16:57] It's like, okay, so eventually I got up to $20 an hour. [00:17:00] And one of the big projects was a website portal that embassy families could log into to learn languages. [00:17:11] So what happens is like you're in the Foreign Service and you get posted to, I don't know, Seoul, right? [00:17:20] They are going to teach you and drill you on Korean, but they don't do really anything for your family. [00:17:27] So cool. [00:17:28] You get a two year post to Seoul, but like your husband or your partner or your wife or your kids, like they don't. [00:17:36] How are they going to go to the grocery store? [00:17:38] They don't know anything. [00:17:39] And it was very alienating. [00:17:41] And the families had written to Congress and they really asked for, you know, can we get some kind of language help, too? [00:17:49] They earmarked the money. [00:17:51] So that was the portal that I was building. [00:17:53] The, the, I didn't do the backend or the database stuff, but teachers were developing the curricula. [00:17:58] But this included like Marine guards that go get posted at embassies too. [00:18:03] And that was the first time that I saw like my little computer world, like benefit a large number of people before it was just sort of like, you know, I'm adept at computers or something. [00:18:15] But this was like a project where I could see the result and that, that felt really good. [00:18:20] And then, and then I was off to college again. [00:18:25] I never in my mind thought like, Oh, this is, I should pursue technology. [00:18:30] I think I've heard a lot of people say, like, I think there's this false dichotomy between like the humanities and science or STEM or whatever you want to call it. [00:18:41] I think we sort of segment things. [00:18:43] Anyway, I, I didn't have the confidence that I was like a quote unquote technology person, which I think, I hope that doesn't still exist. [00:18:52] I, I think we do kids a great disservice if, if we're not kind of showing them the panoply of options available. [00:19:03] If you're not like, Oh, you're a left brain or a right brain person. [00:19:06] I think that's just garbage. [00:19:08] Anyway, I had a plan. [00:19:10] I was gonna go to college. [00:19:11] I was gonna do international relations. [00:19:13] I was gonna be a human rights lawyer, had it all planned out. [00:19:18] And then that flamed out first semester when I discovered that international relations is super Eurocentric and very rigid. [00:19:30] And I had the chance to meet Henry Kissinger, who is a war criminal. [00:19:35] And I was like, this person is like an elder statesman. [00:19:37] I can't do this. [00:19:38] But I did discover, I discovered anthropology. [00:19:46] I took anthropology one-on-one. [00:19:48] It like blew my mind. [00:19:49] I was like, this is how I understand people. [00:19:51] Like cultures and just like the way you dress, the way you talk. [00:19:54] It's like you can discover entire universes. [00:19:57] Like it was a gateway to understand how people operate in the world. [00:20:02] So then I had a whole new plan, which was PhD in anthropology. [00:20:06] I'm going to go to London School of Economics. [00:20:08] We're going to do applied anthropology, you know, development projects in the global south. [00:20:14] And that also flamed out mostly because I was just burnt out on theory by the end of college. [00:20:20] I didn't want to do that. [00:20:22] And I felt like Wile E. Coyote running off the cliff and only like half, you know, getting halfway across the canyon before you realize that there's nothing under you. [00:20:34] And then definitely kind of went out to sea for a couple of years figuratively, meaning just totally lost that, you know, I had professors tell me like the first two years out of college were like the worst time of my life. [00:20:46] And I was like, thanks. [00:20:48] I'm very inspiring. [00:20:50] So there was a lot in that intervening period. [00:20:55] I was a rock climbing guide and instructor managed warehouse for an outdoor retailer. [00:21:06] I was a wedding photographer at one point. [00:21:09] That was me just trying to make money off of something I was already doing, which is photography. [00:21:16] So there's always this like push and pull between like technology and the humanities. [00:21:20] Right. And, you know, all through this time I was reading and writing my way through it. [00:21:27] And then eventually I took a writing program and because I was like, well, I write all the time, I guess they'll just see if I can write short stories, which hadn't really occurred to me. [00:21:40] I traveled a lot. [00:21:41] So anyone is listening in my my 20s was essentially this pattern. [00:21:47] Get job, save money, quit job, travel, return with no money, repeat. [00:21:54] So I remember dragging my then girlfriend to Japan where we lived. [00:22:05] And I remember returning to the US after a year and a half. [00:22:10] You know, we went to Western China. [00:22:12] We went into Tibet, hiked down into Kathmandu. [00:22:18] And then when we returned to the States and we had $800 to our name in Chinese Yuan, like shoved into our like socks and pants like that was what I did in my 20s. [00:22:29] So no real job until 30. [00:22:31] But I would write while I was traveling. [00:22:34] So that got me into writing. [00:22:36] Had a great writing teacher. [00:22:39] She was like, you should apply for this program that I did, which is in Key West. [00:22:44] And I was like, okay, cool. [00:22:47] And I and I got. [00:22:50] I got it by dint of I don't know what I don't really know that the story that I submitted were that good. [00:22:56] But anyway, I got in. [00:22:58] So at this time I was living in a cabin in the mountains was cattle farm the I was there for three winters. [00:23:09] And I say that because it was only would heat. [00:23:13] So if anyone knows what that's like, it means you're chopping trees in July because it's going to keep you alive in February. [00:23:25] But the rent for that place was eight hours of week, eight hours of work per week on the farm. [00:23:32] So that's how I was saving money anyway, got the key West. [00:23:36] I happen to be introduced to the author and BD and I to this day, I don't know what happened, but I came out of the program. [00:23:49] I knew I was going to apply for MFA programs as masters of fine arts program because they're essentially like two year fellowship. [00:23:57] So by the time, you know, to get paid and write your novel or whatever. [00:24:03] And I applied to five programs, one of which was at the University of Virginia. [00:24:08] And I thought I had no hope of getting in since, you know, two thousand people apply and they take five and was on the faculty. [00:24:18] And I don't know. I know I you know, I talked to her. [00:24:21] I told her what I was doing. [00:24:23] I didn't say, like, put your hand on scales and I didn't I didn't really expect anything. [00:24:30] I just said, I'll tell her that I'm applying and that's it. [00:24:32] So I don't know if she read my submissions and thought that was valuable. [00:24:38] But anyway, I got in much to my elation. [00:24:41] So that's a that's a lesson in networking. [00:24:44] I don't like that term. [00:24:46] I'm not fully comfortable with it, but I think we all get it. [00:24:49] It's not like the skeezy. What can you do for me? [00:24:52] But it's just building these relationships. [00:24:54] If I think back to like the first writing teacher to introduce me to the program, to build a relationship there, to meet this, you know, some of it's serendipity, but some of it's the relationship building. [00:25:04] And then, OK, let's take it back to tech. [00:25:07] So I get out of the MFA program. [00:25:10] I don't really have like the full novel. [00:25:12] I have a hell of a lot of imposter syndrome. [00:25:15] I don't know. [00:25:16] But we have all this money saved up from having lived in the cabin. [00:25:20] So we buy a house because it's in the low period. [00:25:23] We were super lucky. [00:25:24] And that's truly the only way we could have afforded that house. [00:25:28] So we get a house. [00:25:30] Shoved a lot of life change in, got married. [00:25:35] I was going to have a kid. [00:25:37] So then you have to get a job and creative people. [00:25:42] You go into marketing because you need health insurance. [00:25:47] So I got a gig at writing SEO copy. [00:25:53] So it was sort of like the beginning of that bridge between the creative and the tech. [00:25:58] So I returned back to the Internet after having for circuit for so many years. [00:26:03] And one of my favorite stories from that time period is my very first writing assignment was for drugstore.com. [00:26:14] And I was tasked with writing helpful articles about sex toys. [00:26:26] So that was the highest selling unit on their website. [00:26:30] And they needed SEO juice for the sex toy division. [00:26:35] So that encompassed basically, you know, in two weeks, I burned that laptop. [00:26:42] I said, you know, like, you can't, I don't know how to do that research. [00:26:47] I mean, here I am with the double monitor. [00:26:49] I'm like, please don't look at my screen. [00:26:50] But I don't know what you should do to clean a dildo. [00:26:55] But I got to research it. [00:26:56] And then I got to write it and put these keywords in it. [00:26:59] Anyway, so that, that was the, that was the perfect marriage of the creative, the web design, I guess. [00:27:07] And then eventually, what was this like 2013? [00:27:12] I started moving into social media. [00:27:14] I had done a little bit for, of work with a social media organization for one of the professors' wives. [00:27:24] And I parlayed that into this new thing, because at that time, companies were just being like, oh, Facebook's a thing. [00:27:30] I guess we got to do something with that. [00:27:32] So I started developing strategies. [00:27:35] And it was all based on kind of what I understood in anthropology, you know, try telling them that, you know, you can't, it's all very, I guess, well known now, but it was, it wasn't then, which is like, you can't just use this as a megaphone. [00:27:50] Like the people have all the power, they can just, you know, flame war you and like trying to teach the suits about this at some really big companies, especially some really big B2B financial services. [00:28:03] It's like, you can't just like put all your blogs out and expect anyone to care, because you're not offering anything of value. [00:28:10] So it's building those social strategies. [00:28:11] But this is when kind of that tech side started to creep in again, because I would go to my clients. [00:28:18] And at this time, the agency I worked for got acquired by a huge agency. [00:28:22] So it was like this global agency with these huge financial service clients. [00:28:26] I was going up to New York all the time. [00:28:29] And I remember being in front of some people and they had all their passwords, like, you know, like just in a clear text spreadsheet. [00:28:42] And I was like, no, no. [00:28:44] I was like, I can't name the banks, but I was like, do you understand what would happen if somebody got a hold of your like Twitter account and just started posting whatever the hell they want? [00:28:54] Like you would basically crater your brand very quickly. [00:28:59] I was like the worst case scenario, big bank, is I could pretend to be your customer service and put out a link to a phishing site. [00:29:08] And they were like, what's a phishing site? [00:29:10] I was like, oh, my God, this is a huge problem. [00:29:13] And it's because I'm talking to marketing people and not IT. [00:29:17] And I think this was the beginning of what I would call this, like, you know, what we're in now, like the application sprawl, right? [00:29:26] Like marketing was just spinning up social channels because they're like, we got to be on Instagram. [00:29:31] We got to be on whatever the hell. [00:29:32] And, you know, they weren't really telling IT. [00:29:34] And to be fair, there weren't any processes or procedures of like how they were going to procure that. [00:29:40] And anyway, I started giving the they liked what I had to say about the password thing. [00:29:47] So I started talking about like password management and just and these were just things that you pick up as a computer user who is a paranoid and fearful person, I guess. [00:29:56] But yeah, I started doing that. [00:30:00] And then separately, the work was kind of getting to be a grind. [00:30:03] I was getting put on some clients that I just didn't really agree with. [00:30:08] I mean, one sells juvenile life insurance, which just is a scam. [00:30:16] The other was a sub prime credit card issuer, like they go after people with credit scores, like below 500, which I didn't know was a thing, but is a thing. [00:30:30] And their whole thing is like, we help people build back their credit. [00:30:33] I was like, y'all have like usurious interest rates that compound daily and your parking lot is full of Teslas and Lamborghinis. [00:30:41] So I don't believe you. [00:30:43] Anyway, that was it was a real drag. [00:30:48] And I remember, you know, every four weeks we'd have to change our passwords. [00:30:54] I was using this like really long alphanumerical scheme, but it was easy to change. [00:31:01] As everyone knows, like you just changed like one element of it. [00:31:04] And I remember projecting it out, you know, the number and I was like, oh, my God, I can't be here by the time it gets to this number. [00:31:15] Like I set that number. [00:31:16] I was like, I cannot be here by the time that. [00:31:19] No, it wasn't sequential Tomas. [00:31:22] I'm looking at you in the chat. [00:31:25] But I just knew like that's the number. [00:31:28] I cannot be here. [00:31:30] And so I started job searching. [00:31:31] I didn't really know what to do. [00:31:34] I think this is maybe easier these days. [00:31:37] But, you know, I think you get in one track and you think like, well, this is the only thing I can apply for. [00:31:45] So it should look that way. [00:31:49] But lo and behold, I found I found a startup that was specializing in social media. [00:31:57] We were called Social Safeguard at the time, but the technology has since evolved in the architecture, allowed them to add more channels. [00:32:05] Anyway, it just felt like a pretty clean lateral move. [00:32:09] You know, I have a lot of experience, especially with regulated industries using social media. [00:32:14] So I moved over and I have been there ever since that was 2018. [00:32:20] It's been a wild ride. [00:32:22] I encourage anyone who can get into a startup. [00:32:25] It's a fun ride. [00:32:27] I mean, it's it's building instead of, you know, just the cog in the wheel. [00:32:32] It's scrappy. [00:32:33] It's scrappy. [00:32:34] You got to fight. [00:32:35] And but it's it's really thrilling. [00:32:38] I try to tell people it's like a it's a new Rubik's Cube every day. [00:32:45] And I mean, I don't we are given the great gift of the human mind. [00:32:51] And if you're if you don't challenge it or use it, I think that's a waste of that gift. [00:32:56] And I think a new Rubik's Cube every day is is well worth it. [00:33:00] But yeah, I think that takes us to now, Tomas. [00:33:04] That's awesome. [00:33:05] And, you know, I love I love doing these things weekly because you never know what you're going to hear from our from our guests. [00:33:12] So, you know, on that note, I will pass it over to Lisa Beth. [00:33:17] Lintini Walker. [00:33:18] Over to you. [00:33:19] Thanks, Tomas. [00:33:21] George, you took us on quite a journey on how you kind of got here to today. [00:33:28] And I was excited to hear about, you know, the entire the entire voyage that brought you to us at this moment. [00:33:36] As you look out at the future, what are the things that you think are going to be differentiators in this profession for the next, you know, five years? [00:33:48] Do you see things right now that you think are going to make a difference in skills that we may have or be missing? [00:33:55] Oh, that's a great question. [00:33:58] Yes, I am. [00:34:01] I think I have a very privileged point of view, having started this podcast and having had the opportunity to kind of ingest a lot of different experiences. [00:34:13] But I do think the skills that are more resilient are the ones that are systems thinking and combinatorial. [00:34:24] Right. [00:34:25] And so what I mean is like I said it earlier, like getting rid of this sort of creative analytical divide. [00:34:33] And so, you know, when I think about cybersecurity at large, we have seen this evolution from when networks were built locally and now we move into the cloud. [00:34:48] But with that, we've seen the explosive adoption of different areas. [00:34:54] I was just talking with Nate this week. [00:34:58] He's here in the room. [00:35:01] You know, and so what that means is we have seen, I think everyone here in this room, if you're in cyber, has seen the responsibility has gone across the organization. [00:35:13] Right. Like all this conversation about, you know, cyber leaders need to also work with HR and about hiring principals, but they also need to talk to risk teams and involve legal. [00:35:24] And it's just going to take some specificity. [00:35:29] But as you move up into other positions, especially management positions, you have to have kind of a well rounded sense of what you're bringing in and whether that's, you know, you have the discipline of stoic philosophy or you have a creative mind that helps you diagram the risk in a way that the board understands [00:35:51] understands versus like a more technical architecture diagram or, you know, numerical assessment. [00:35:57] It's going to take a lot of combinatorial thinking because when you think about the adversaries and and I've tried to use that term lately and I'm trying to destigmatize hacker. [00:36:08] But when you think about that hacking mindset, they don't think in silos. [00:36:14] They think about it is a multidisciplinary approach. [00:36:17] Like, what is the human psychology that I am going to use to trick you to do this, to do that? [00:36:22] And then once I'm in, I will use technical skills to move here. [00:36:25] And, you know, and and they even have the business skills. [00:36:28] Like if you look at the fishing as a service or ransomware as a service, you know, they have business skills. [00:36:33] So it's taking like you, we have to really like break down the skill sets and sort of build them back up out of these little boxes and think more creatively. [00:36:45] That's a long answer. [00:36:48] Love it. I love, you know, speaking to the importance of creativity in every, frankly, in every profession. [00:36:57] I think that sometimes creativity gets a short shrift in certain professions. [00:37:02] Mine, you know, ours included. [00:37:04] But it is so important that we honor all of those skills. [00:37:08] So thanks for sharing that. [00:37:11] I'm going to pass it over to Katie. [00:37:13] Thank you, Lisa Beth. [00:37:15] Yeah. And I think it's probably a really good moment to reset the room, but then also just kind of point out. [00:37:21] I mean, even the moderators on this stage are very diverse as well. [00:37:24] Lisa Beth Lentitti-Walker, author of Raise Your Game, Not Your Voice, you know, as well as being a cybersecurity risk and compliance leader. [00:37:33] So I think it's really timely, you know, having George with us tonight. [00:37:37] So we're here every single Wednesday night. [00:37:39] We listen to people's stories, leaders in our field. [00:37:43] And honestly, thank you so much, George, for being here tonight. [00:37:47] For those of you who are new to this this evening, we are here every Wednesday. [00:37:51] You can follow us on the upper left hand corner if you just click on the, you know, the little greenhouse. [00:37:57] You can not only, you know, follow us and know when these events are happening and who our guests are going to be, but you can also listen to replay. [00:38:06] So if you miss any of this evening's conversation or would like to go back and listen in to any of our previous conversations, you can do that by doing that. [00:38:15] So just again, we're here tonight with George Comidi. [00:38:19] He is the senior director of Safeguard Cyber and then host of First Watch podcast, which I've been a guest on. [00:38:28] And so this is a lot of fun, George, because I know you. [00:38:33] You know what? It's always the ones asking questions that really have the most to say. [00:38:38] And I love that. I love it. I can't believe that we've had sat together this many times. [00:38:45] And I didn't know all of these things about you. So thank you again for being here. [00:38:50] And my question really comes down to kind of the anthropology piece when you're looking at, you know, people and, you know, the social strategies that adversaries take in this space and kind of what you've gleaned from the last four years and the startup that's focused on these areas. [00:39:12] Just kind of curious what your thoughts are about whether or not we as a cybersecurity profession are taking the human factors serious enough. [00:39:21] And if we are or aren't, it's kind of which direction you would take that and what we can do to either improve what we're doing well or, you know, start something new that we may not be looking at at all. [00:39:34] Yeah, I am. I am doubly blessed and or privileged to be interested in things like human psychology and having worked in social media and also now working for a cybersecurity company that kind of marries the two. [00:39:53] So I think to answer your question, it's not ubiquitous, but, you know, I really hate the the idea that the human is the weakest link. [00:40:08] I think that's pretty old and I think the industry has rightfully moved away from that. [00:40:13] I would say that humans in an organization are your greatest vulnerability, but the same things that make them vulnerable are the same things that make them your greatest asset. [00:40:23] Right. Like the work doesn't get done with humans. [00:40:26] What I would say as it results to this, just we live in the age of currently social engineering resurgent. [00:40:35] Right. Like that term has been around for 30 years and you see the most sophisticated organizations on the planet, like the likes of Microsoft, get popped because of human vulnerability. [00:40:50] And I think that that is where we need to focus when I think about that combinatorial thinking. [00:40:59] So let me most contextualize that. I was reading an interview with a ransomware operator and he said, I mean, his numbers are off. [00:41:10] He was saying like, look, we can't compete with these cybersecurity budgets. [00:41:15] They're in the billions of dollars. I think everyone on this call wishes they had a billion dollar cybersecurity budget. [00:41:19] Anyway, his point was we can't. They will always outspend us, but we have nothing but time to study their people and and work the social piece. [00:41:32] And I think it is going to take. I want to say a sea change, but it's going to take a change of thinking and understanding and empathizing with human end users. [00:41:45] I think what we're living through right now is probably kind of like the sonic boom after the pandemic broke everything, which is to say that people are still highly stressed. [00:41:59] They're highly vulnerable. Thanks, LinkedIn, for continuing to put the news headline about layoffs and layer on top of that, this massive distribution and fragmentation of the way we communicate. [00:42:11] Right. Right. Like your boss texts you. Can you get on this call? [00:42:15] You get on the slack. They've dumped like the zoom link in there. [00:42:18] And, you know, you have you have to divide your attention in so many ways. [00:42:22] And there is an enormous cognitive load on the human end user layer on top of that the stress of, you know, I've got to get this done. [00:42:29] I got to sort of continue to be a high performer so, you know, I don't get cut. [00:42:33] And then layer on top of that the technological aspect that like every line of business has like a different cloud application. [00:42:43] Like, you know, the developers want to use slack, but the enterprise wants to use teams. [00:42:47] Some people hate zoom and, you know, maybe some team just use the company credit card and spun up like a different sales force instance. [00:42:55] Like you have applications probably if human going every which way to do their job and just communicate and collaborate effectively. [00:43:03] And they'll hack their way through it if they have to because everyone's a hacker eventually. [00:43:08] And then what hasn't changed? [00:43:10] I mean, the human mind is like 200,000 year old hardware and spoiler alert. [00:43:15] There's no patching schedule for it. [00:43:17] Right. So like it is what it is. [00:43:20] And I think if we believe that we're going to security awareness training our way through this apologies to anyone in the audience who works for security awareness training program, I think we are delusional. [00:43:33] We're going to use strong words there. [00:43:35] I mean, we've been doing that training for the same amount of time. [00:43:40] That training is mostly phishing simulations, which piss people off. [00:43:46] And then we have it's all inbound email. [00:43:51] Like that's what the training is. [00:43:53] And we've sort of kind of been inured to that for about 20 years. [00:43:56] Meanwhile, if I slip into your slack instance where there is a higher implicit trust where people joke and they throw memes around all the time, I'm probably going to get what I want. [00:44:07] I mean, just the other last week, somebody found a way to use GIFs as a steganographic attack inside of teams so they could they could literally exploit the communication channel. [00:44:21] And you use the most with the medium with which you communicate the most, the most innocuous media possible, which is a GIF. [00:44:30] So so let's think about that. And then, Lisa Beth, I was actually thinking about you. [00:44:36] I was listening to a sociologist podcast. [00:44:41] She studies status. Right. And how status rules govern everything. [00:44:48] And so let me I'm going to get really discursive here, but she gave the example of all the unspoken rules of status. [00:44:56] Right. Like, let's say the typical college classroom she used to teach at Stanford. [00:45:00] You have someone there who's a first generation student, maybe feeling imposter syndrome. [00:45:05] So they're already walking in on guard. [00:45:07] You have somebody whose parents went to Stanford and they feel that they belong there. [00:45:12] And the professor asked a question. [00:45:14] So in that moment, someone's going to stick their hand up. [00:45:17] Someone's not. And the moment that person sticks their hand up and they start to speak, everyone's going to sort of start to turn toward that person. [00:45:24] Oh, they know what they're talking about. [00:45:26] And the status rules start to shift. [00:45:28] This got me thinking about how does it how do security teams communicate to their organization? [00:45:37] Right. Like, I don't want to pile on Uber, but like, if I'm a contractor who I believe was the victim the last I read. [00:45:47] Has Uber security team, you know, communicated to the contractors in the same way that they communicate to full time staff? [00:45:56] Like, this is the way we will talk to you. [00:45:59] This is the way we will issue MFA notifications. [00:46:02] We're never going to reach out on WhatsApp because we don't know your WhatsApp identity. [00:46:08] Anyway, it's like. [00:46:10] What I'm trying to say is that is evidence of a breakdown in understanding the problems that end users are facing. [00:46:19] And I think it is also incumbent upon us to pull from these other disciplines to understand what are some organizational [00:46:26] processes that we need to put in place so that one people don't hate it for phishing simulations. [00:46:32] They don't like roll their eyes and be like, I got to do like a help desk ticket or I could just like hack my way around. [00:46:38] Right. They we have to build that trust. [00:46:41] And I think that trust is going to come from other disciplines than than what they've come from in the past. [00:46:47] If that answers the question. [00:46:49] Well, it absolutely does. I mean, it posed another very big question, though, is it GIF or is it Jeff thinking about ever since? [00:47:03] No, I'm just kidding. No, thank you for that. [00:47:05] Russell did a meme. So that's why I said that. [00:47:10] But no, like, listen, George, you beyond answered my question. [00:47:14] And I think you really hit on something, too, that I'm glad you hit on is that, you know, that it's not it's not just the human condition. [00:47:21] We can't just say it's always the human factor and that, you know, there is an onus and responsibility on organizations and for both their employees and their consumers. [00:47:30] So I appreciate that sentiment. And with that, I'll just pass the microphone over to Russell. [00:47:37] Thanks again, George. [00:47:41] Well, what a great lead in for that. [00:47:43] And yes, I was having some fun with the proper pronunciation of things. [00:47:48] And I really love I want to have a question about what I'm just going to say that comment of when we even use the word users to me, it's disrespectful. [00:47:57] I like to use the word colleagues. I like to say, you know what, we work together. [00:48:01] You're an expert in something. I'm an expert in something. [00:48:03] You're here for a reason. I'm here for a reason. [00:48:05] And I think that little simple hacks of how we talk about our coworkers can go a long way in helping us to respect them more and help them realize, you know, they're a target. [00:48:17] They're not, you know, the cause of the problem. [00:48:20] Maybe maybe there's some things that we've done in our security program to fail them or let them down or not let them be aware in language they can understand. [00:48:29] So that's just a hot topic for me. [00:48:31] And just glad to have a minuscule part of that conversation tonight. [00:48:37] George, on your it's amazing having you here when you hosted me on your podcast, you talked about, you know, hey, Russell, what are you doing to help people see there's opportunity inside of cyber? [00:48:49] Maybe to bring people in, be more inclusive in our industry to fill however many open jobs that we have. [00:48:57] And you challenged me and you kept on and I appreciate that. [00:49:00] And I can still remember to this day what that conversation looked like. [00:49:05] Question for you, George, is what's something that we all can do? [00:49:09] What's something that we all can do to help invite people to consider a career in cybersecurity and possibly, you know, close the gap? [00:49:18] How many people we don't have in the industry? [00:49:21] Is there something we all can do whether we're on stage or a leader or anything like that? [00:49:27] I'd love to hear your insights on that question. [00:49:30] Yeah, 100%. [00:49:31] I, yeah, I have some hard feelings about the talent gap that may not be popular, but I feel like the talent gap may be largely one of our own devising, whether that's the most obvious roadblock. [00:49:47] Like, you know, requiring certs for entry level positions and all that, which has been debated endlessly. [00:49:56] What I would say is, I guess, I guess I'm going to keep saying this word, which is combinatorial, which is helping people understand the skills they have are worthwhile and legitimate to our industry. [00:50:12] Right. And we need to do a better job of messaging that. [00:50:17] And what I mean by that is, you know, part of the thing I did at first watch was, well, you know, I've talked to a lot of leaders, but I am not talking to the other end of the spectrum. [00:50:27] So we started this sub series called Spotlight, which is intentionally go after people who are kind of in their first year or two years of cyber and talk about their journey. [00:50:36] And, you know, the same skills that are used elsewhere. [00:50:43] So practical example, I have some friends who are teachers who are a little burnt out and I understand that. [00:50:51] And while it would pain me to see them leave public education because we need them, they're also not going to do anyone a service by being burned out. [00:50:59] But the patience and the empathy and the stuff, the skills that they've developed, you know, from a vendor side, that is the number one thing you need in your customer success manager. [00:51:13] But from the commercial side, that's probably who you want on your help desk. Right. [00:51:20] Like, don't you want like the calm, helpful ex-kindergarten teacher or special education teacher? [00:51:28] And then some of those discover a different path altogether. [00:51:32] I talked with a woman who did a boot camp and she didn't quite know what discipline she was going to go into, but a company extended an internship and she got a tier one SOC analyst and she's loving it. [00:51:45] But that took two things. [00:51:47] It took her believing that her skill set could in any way apply to our industry and then took a company willing to cultivate that talent, like understanding, like, you know, [00:52:02] you're not perfect from day one if we were to like just draw an analyst out of thin air. [00:52:07] But you have these other skills that that we need and we can train the rest. [00:52:12] And I think it's opening up that aperture to the world of the possible. [00:52:18] And I, you know, in my story, I was like, I never thought of myself as like a tech person, even though I just happen to use computers all the time. [00:52:24] And so I think there are a lot of people who do that, who are probably very adept, but they've been led to believe that a tech career is just reading lines of code and that's not what they're in it for. [00:52:43] Got it. I love that so much. This idea there is. [00:52:46] I think there is a place for folks to bring their skills that things are good at as they consider possibly joining us in the mission of cyber. [00:52:55] And I really appreciate your answer there. Tomas back over to you. [00:53:00] Thanks for so. And thanks team. Great question so far. [00:53:04] Just very, very quick room reset. If you just joined us, we're joined here by Josh Comidi. [00:53:09] You missed a good conversation so far, but have no fear there. [00:53:13] This is being recorded so you could play back and see what you missed. [00:53:16] If you do want to ask a question of George, feel free to raise your hand and we will bring you up on stage. [00:53:20] If you can't talk for whatever reason, just feel free to put it in the chat and I will read it off to George. [00:53:26] He can read it himself because he's been paying attention to the chat, calling me out on my password. [00:53:32] One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine. [00:53:35] Hey, George, question for you. You're always on the other end asking people questions. [00:53:39] What have you found most interesting of the guests that you have actually interviewed and what's maybe changed your your mind or thoughts upon on a different on any particular topic? [00:53:51] And you could name you could pick any topic you want. [00:53:54] Yeah. [00:53:56] I would say I'll say two things. [00:53:59] The first is I think I alluded to it at the beginning, which is. [00:54:04] And I guess it touches on what Russell said is there are so many paths into cyber and a lot of them are not conventional again to the point where it's like, I don't know what the conventional path is. [00:54:18] And so if that is true of this generation, we have to make it seem just as true for the next generation. [00:54:27] Right. So evangelizing that, you know, multi pathway. [00:54:31] And the other part I would say is I didn't know what I was getting into when I started the podcast, but I have found this community to be. [00:54:44] And this is maybe from the privileged position of somebody who is interviewing and therefore kind of also offering a platform. [00:54:51] But I have found the industry to be very generous. [00:54:57] Right. I think the thing that's most satisfying is that cyber is an industry that really rewards curiosity. [00:55:07] Right. They're never done learning. And even if you're an expert in one domain, you can go off and explore another. [00:55:16] And all the people I've interviewed have been people who have been willing to explore different things, whether it's in leadership styles or whatever, but also willing to give their time. [00:55:28] You know, I've been coming to this room for a year now and being able to sit here and ask these questions of hell, of CISO, of Barclays. [00:55:38] Like who would think that you could do that and that they would even answer your question. [00:55:43] But also being able to meet most of you in in person. [00:55:48] It's just been I don't know. I think I want to understand this paradox between the common misconception of the elitism and, you know, pierce the veil versus my experience, which has been anything but. [00:56:04] And I have found, you know, just as many leaders willing to talk to, you know, entry level people at DEFCON or Black Hat or whatever and give them that leg up. [00:56:15] And I have found that to be just very fortifying it again. [00:56:18] I'm not I'm not hacking juvenile life insurance anymore. So I feel very I feel very grateful. [00:56:25] Awesome. Thanks for that. Xavier. [00:56:30] I believe it's it. Yeah, Xavier Sweeney. Thanks for jumping up on stage. Anything you want to ask George? [00:56:37] I didn't actually have a question initially, but I just popped up just to say hi. [00:56:43] I'm getting an infosec. So I'm sitting for the OCP. Any advice you have? [00:56:48] Cool. Good luck with good luck with the with the test. I hope you I hope you pass it. [00:56:59] One of the things I always like to say is always have a plan as to why you're taking the test and why you're spending the money. [00:57:05] It's great to get the education. It's great to validate your your knowledge. [00:57:10] But what's next after that? So keep that in mind. [00:57:14] I don't know if you have another question. Okay, I know you have another question. [00:57:20] I'll pass it over to you. [00:57:24] Well, I will take a first crack at that. [00:57:27] George, you know, one of the things I love to do is ask people like what's on your reading list? [00:57:33] What do you think is a must read right now in the industry? What are you paying attention to? [00:57:38] Tell us what where your mind is at. [00:57:44] Let me go off mute. Okay. [00:57:47] So I am always reading three books because I can't focus. [00:57:54] I don't know. [00:57:56] So I divide my reading between what I call like the professional, the pleasure and the wisdom. [00:58:05] So there's usually a novel at work because that's just the writer in me. [00:58:09] And then there's something in the industry. [00:58:11] And then there's a philosophy, which is just learning how to live well and die well. [00:58:18] So presently, I would say for anyone, especially getting into cyber, you know, I came up with a lot of Buddhist philosophy. [00:58:28] But I have over the last two years been into a lot of stoic philosophies. [00:58:34] It's very helpful in terms of resilience and also understanding what is in and outside of your control, which I can't think of a more apt philosophical school for cyber, right? [00:58:45] Like I control this. I do not control that and being able to distinguish between the two and where you allocate your energies. [00:58:54] So if you just want a quick read, I would I would recommend the daily stoic because it's literally a passage of ancient philosophy every day. [00:59:02] And that would probably get the gears turning in the right direction of late. [00:59:07] Of late, I am rereading Nicole Perlos, superb. [00:59:12] This is how they tell me that the world ends. [00:59:15] But I also have a few practitioner books on social engineering on the bedside table because I just want to kind of. [00:59:24] You know, I think we understand social engineering at an intuitive level, but I want to dig more into the psychology and then I guess I'm overweight on that side. [00:59:35] I don't have a novel at the moment, but I'll probably go looking for Ruth Ozeki's The Book of Form and Emptiness, which I think touches on. [00:59:45] She's a Buddhist nun and an author, so that touches on my favorite Buddhist idea, which is emptiness, which is that, you know, the things don't have a form unless you project one onto them with with our own mental construct. [00:59:59] All right. Well, I love it. You you the daily stoic, I think, is going to end up being on my list somehow. [01:00:09] So I really appreciate that. And I will turn it back over. [01:00:14] I think Katie, you might have had a couple of questions, so I want to make sure that there's time for that. [01:00:19] Yeah, sure. Yeah, I definitely do. And we had a couple of people join the stage, though, so I want to make sure I give them some time first. [01:00:25] Irvin, you joined first and I'll go to Tasha. But Irvin over to you. [01:00:31] Yes. Hi. Hey, George, I really appreciate you speaking about the next kind of people up on stage getting ready to join cyber, because that's where I'm at. [01:00:39] It's like 36 hours I've been into cyber. [01:00:43] So and Russell is actually giving back to us. He's he's teaching us right now. [01:00:48] But the question I have is you're talking about the industry reaching out to us and being kind of as helpful as possible. [01:00:56] How do we take the next step and not feel like imposters in a room trying to even apply for jobs we don't feel like we qualify for? [01:01:02] Because I'm in a room full of 20 military officers who are transitioning and nobody feels like they can get a civilian job right now. [01:01:09] Hmm. OK, that's a fantastic question. Also, I mean, I can't speak for Tomas and Katie, but spoiler alert, I don't know if imposter syndrome ever goes away. [01:01:19] But so I guess I would say in terms of applying one of the lessons that I took away from mine was just being able to validate the skill sets that I thought did apply. [01:01:36] Right. So if you're if you understand what's in the job description and you kind of for lack of a better term, you kind of stare at it and then you attempt to stare through it. [01:01:46] And it's sort of like, what is this company trying to achieve here and try to map that back to your skills? [01:01:54] I think it's very easy to get stuck in the weeds on the job description itself. [01:01:58] Like, oh, it's this type of analyst. But what do they need in a SOC analyst? [01:02:05] What do they need in a security engineer? What do they need in a threat hunter? [01:02:09] Why would that matter to this particular organization? Is it financial services, which faces like a different set of risks than, say, a technology company where IP is the crown jewels? [01:02:21] And then look at your skills and kind of draw out a mind map of your experience, because for 100 percent, my experience is that people in the military have a whole set of skills that that are hard to teach in terms of being able to work well within a group. [01:02:42] Like basically be able to integrate into a team setting extremely quickly, being able to adapt very quickly. [01:02:50] Right. Like I don't I think if you're in the army, maybe the OODA loop doesn't apply, but I think that's been taken across the military out of the Air Force, you know, and being able to take in that feedback and adapt to changing conditions is a skill set that is. [01:03:07] And if you can just speak to that, we are storytelling creatures. This is the anthropology student back in me. [01:03:13] If you can tell the story of how those skills will make that organization safer, you own that. That's your story. And no one can take that away from you. [01:03:23] So it's hard to feel an imposter in your own life. So I think the imposter syndrome comes up when you're trying to match against some sort of imaginary objective scale of skill. [01:03:33] But the story that you have is yours and yours alone, and it's 100 percent the thing that's going to make you distinguishable from any other candidate in the stack. [01:03:42] Hope that helps. [01:03:47] You may be you may be muted. [01:03:55] If you wanted to respond on the bottom right. [01:03:57] Yeah, I just I didn't want to I don't want to take back the stage after that. [01:04:00] It's hard to follow that because it went a completely different way. [01:04:03] I was I was expecting like, oh, do X, Y and Z because that's very the army way. [01:04:07] So I really appreciate that. That was actually really helpful. [01:04:11] And I'm going to pass that on to my team. Thank you. [01:04:12] Good. Good. And I will say I will say networking, right? [01:04:16] If Russell's there, you're talking to Russell. [01:04:18] I mean, I'm I'm aware of the weight that that word carries. [01:04:23] But again, like, you know, we're not for Clubhouse. [01:04:26] I would not have met Katie. We're not for Clubhouse. [01:04:29] You know, SafeGuard Cyber wouldn't have been able to host Lisa Beth. [01:04:32] You know, Tasha's up here on stage and met her at Black Hat. [01:04:36] I mean, this is a generous industry. [01:04:39] It feels maybe differently from the outside. [01:04:41] But if you ask, I think there are plenty of people who will put out a hand. [01:04:46] Thanks, everyone. Thanks for jumping on stage and a little party celebration shows that you just joined. [01:04:56] So welcome to Clubhouse and hopefully we'll we'll have you on our next shows. [01:05:01] We do this every Wednesday. [01:05:03] So just a reminder for everybody, we do this every single Wednesday. [01:05:06] No fail, rain or shine. [01:05:08] No matter whether we're in the East Coast, West Coast or international. [01:05:11] All right. I'm done plugging. [01:05:14] But there was something I didn't want to say to everybody. [01:05:21] Yeah, you are connected to the right person with Russell. [01:05:23] I'm sure Russell could get you plugged in. [01:05:24] The one thing that I'll just tell you and I usually tell military folks, you know, you have a ton of transferable skills. [01:05:33] It's just trying to identify your transferable skills to what job descriptions may be looking for in the private sector is probably the key challenge. [01:05:45] But I'm sure Russell can give you a lot of tips as you have him at your disposal right there in person. [01:05:50] So definitely ping him on on on that. [01:05:54] And especially those who have security clearance, you want to try to keep those clearances and and leverage those clearances to your advantage. [01:06:02] And although there's a ton of analyst roles, whether it's, you know, cyber intelligence analysts or physical security intelligence. [01:06:10] Rose that you can leverage those that particular clearance in that capacity. [01:06:16] But anyways, that was just a quick tip. Hopefully that's helpful for you. [01:06:20] Tasha, thanks for joining us this evening. Over to you. [01:06:24] Anything you want to ask George? [01:06:29] Um, no, I don't want to ask any anything. [01:06:35] It's weird because it's like I kind of know him already. [01:06:38] So anything that I had to ask, I would ask. [01:06:42] But I did get the surprise with the sex toy researcher like that. [01:06:48] That is what I'm going to leave this discussion with. [01:06:52] Right. [01:06:56] Um, and also, you reminded me to add a to read the book that was on my to do list and I totally forgot about it. [01:07:04] But if you haven't, Sam Wyrm and Countdown to Zero Day, two of my favorite books. [01:07:10] So if you haven't read those two, you should definitely. [01:07:13] Yeah, they're, they're really good. [01:07:15] I have to, uh, I have to modulate the cyber diet. [01:07:18] Otherwise I get really paranoid. [01:07:20] But yes, Sam Wyrm is really, really good. [01:07:23] Awesome. [01:07:24] Thanks, Tasha. [01:07:25] And, uh, it's good. [01:07:26] It's good that you got some key takeaways from this, this evening discussion. [01:07:31] Uh, I'm sure a few of us are, were, were pretty, uh, in, in, uh, in awe of those comments earlier on this evening. [01:07:42] But, look, web design will take you into different, uh, when you have clients, you never know what they're gonna ask for. [01:07:47] Right, George? [01:07:48] That's right. [01:07:49] Uh, Pamela, over to you. [01:07:52] Thanks for joining us this evening. [01:07:53] Anything you wanna, uh, ask George or comment on? [01:07:56] Yes, I have a quick comment. [01:07:58] So, George, you're so impressive, but nothing will be as impressive for me as the sex toy research thing. [01:08:06] Just being completely honest. [01:08:08] And, um, I wanted to know what advice, if you could meet yourself 10 years ago, what advice would you give yourself? [01:08:15] Um, that's a great question. [01:08:18] First of all, it sounds like I need to put sex toy researcher on my LinkedIn profile. [01:08:22] So look for that tomorrow. [01:08:23] Um, but in the, in the short term, um, what would I tell myself 10 years ago? [01:08:30] I mean, I don't know. [01:08:31] Don't be an idiot. [01:08:32] Um, I would say, uh, what I know now is fortune favors the bold, right? [01:08:38] Um, right. [01:08:39] So sort of the same advice that I gave Irvin was born out of going through that myself, which is, oh, I only have these skills. [01:08:49] I can only apply to these kinds of jobs. [01:08:51] Um, I mean, the worst thing that can happen to someone says no. [01:08:55] Um, and so I was just talking with Rebecca skeet today from black girls hack. [01:09:01] Um, and they have a solid theme this year, which is just shoot your shot. [01:09:06] You know, and I think if anyone was paying attention on LinkedIn, uh, when Jen Easterly, CISA came by the girls hack village at Defcon, you know, people went right up to her and said like, Hey, look, I'm just getting in here. [01:09:20] I am a security engineer. [01:09:22] I would love to talk with you. [01:09:24] I would, you know, and you get these first timers getting, you know, their selfie with the director of CISA because they shoot their shot. [01:09:31] So I, that's what I would say as fortune favors the bold, and I would not have been as circumspect about, um, my own story or my own skills and just kind of like read things as the letter of the law. [01:09:44] The letter of the law. [01:09:50] Thank you. [01:09:52] Thanks, Pamela. [01:09:53] Thanks for joining us this evening. [01:09:56] Um, and thanks for asking me a question. [01:09:59] Uh, Katie, I know you have a follow up. [01:10:02] Over to you. [01:10:03] I do. [01:10:04] And it is not sex toy related. [01:10:06] Thank you. [01:10:07] Where, um, everyone I think appreciates that, not because of that exact topic. [01:10:12] I think it's the diversity of everyone's background and also how funny that must feel for somebody to have to do that at work. [01:10:19] But, um, I want to go back into your, uh, resume a little bit more. [01:10:24] Um, I was intrigued by the fact that, um, and something I always wondered about you because I knew you grew up in DC and I was like, I don't know if you ever did any time with the government or what. [01:10:33] So you're, um, you know, work with, um, the state department really, really early on making $15 an hour. [01:10:40] And then, you know, negotiating for $20 an hour for this website that you created. [01:10:46] Um, I'm curious about that experience for you, um, working with, uh, the state department, with the government. [01:10:54] Um, and then how you've managed to take, um, that into the rest of your career. [01:11:00] You did cover that a little bit in terms of, um, you know, you, you had this plan to be a human rights attorney and da da da. [01:11:06] Da da da da. But, um, I just, I want to go back there a little bit because it, to me, it was kind of interesting because a lot of my friends and colleagues who've grown up in the Beltway area have, um, you know, either a first degree of separation like you, you do, um, or have, you know, dabbled a little bit, but just kind of curious, like how to, how has that kind of been the framework for the rest of your career, if at all? And maybe it's not at all. [01:11:28] Yeah. Um, that is a good question. I, well, one of the things that happens when you grow up. [01:11:36] In the Beltway is the old adage of never discuss politics or religion at the dinner table goes out the window. [01:11:43] I remember, I remember my brother had a girlfriend from Hawaii and she was like, why you're not supposed to talk about that. And he was like, are you kidding me? That's all we talk about. [01:11:54] Um, which is to say you get into it quite quickly, but you also learn how to negotiate and feel very quickly around people's limits and, uh, their comfort zone. So I think in business, it has helped like, you know, very quickly suss out. [01:12:14] Okay. This is where that person stands, or this is where they're sensitive about something, not even just politically, but like where their sensitivities are. And it's going to help you speak to them in a, in a more empathetic manner. [01:12:27] Now, when it comes to the state department, I will say one of the kind of most amazing things about the people who work for the foreign service is just kind of the grace under fire. So I just want to paint this picture for you. Right. We are. [01:12:42] The time that I was working there, we are headed to war, right? So I am, uh, imagine that you are a native Iraqi being tasked to train, uh, American citizens to speak Iraqi Arabic so that they can go work in your homeland, large parts of which have been [01:13:11] been bombed and affect you directly. Like the compartmentalization necessary is so severe, um, as to be wondrous that they can kind of do that, that I am here in this country now. And my job is to serve the U S government. I am a U S citizen. [01:13:31] I am a cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow cow [01:14:01] I think in a way that Russell was talking about, like I was designing these websites for people [01:14:07] and I had to understand, like, I need you to answer this question for me so that I can build [01:14:13] this for you. But I, I am recognizing that there's an enormous cognitive load on you right now. Like [01:14:20] there's a huge emotional burden. So I'm not going to, you know, and so I think all of us are going [01:14:26] through something. Everyone is going through something. The guy who chews you out over the [01:14:30] zoom, you know, who knows, maybe his sister's got like brain cancer. I mean, it's just like, [01:14:35] it really was an exercise in, in patience and kind of listening first before you kind of jump in and [01:14:43] try to get your way. I think that's a long winded answer, but that's the thing that I took away from [01:14:47] that community because there were all these different nationalities under all kinds of [01:14:52] different duress, but sort of still working towards one mission, which was to strengthen the diplomatic [01:14:58] core of the United States. [01:15:01] Yeah, I appreciate that. And that's kind of where, yeah, I was going with that as I knew [01:15:06] it had to have some, some tremendous impact and certainly understand that's a difficult endeavor [01:15:14] that you had to entertain as a very young, young person. So it makes a lot of sense, George, [01:15:20] quite frankly, now having gotten to know you a little bit, knowing these little tidbits now [01:15:25] and realizing why you're so, so great at what you do every day. So with that, though, I, [01:15:32] another person has joined the stage, someone who's here very often, a friend of this community, [01:15:38] part of this community, Nate, over to you to ask your next question. [01:15:43] Yeah, thanks, Katie. George, this has been absolutely fascinating and really appreciate the, [01:15:46] the walkthrough and your journey. I mean, you wear a lot of hats. You're obviously running, [01:15:52] running a podcast as well. You, you stopped recently and, and reflected at all on, on a [01:15:59] recent win, or is there anything you can share with us that you've taken immense amount of pride [01:16:02] in, like within recent history? [01:16:05] Whoa. Not good at boasting, but thank you. I wear a lot of hats because I have no hair. No, I, [01:16:14] that's, that's, that's good. I guess I would take, um, a lot of pride. Well, professionally in startup [01:16:24] land, you know, you're always raising money. So getting from one year to the next and doing so [01:16:30] gracefully and doing so without desperation is always a win. And I think that's a, a team effort. [01:16:37] Um, it takes everyone, uh, rowing in the same direction to belabor that metaphor. Um, so that's [01:16:44] the win. I would also say, um, you know, really getting to know people in this community and not [01:16:51] being, and I guess not being afraid anymore to just ask for people's time. So, uh, for example, [01:16:57] I don't know if anyone caught this. There was an incredible article that came out from Pro, [01:17:03] Pro publica on, uh, the commodified, um, and, uh, organized crime in Southeast Asia around, [01:17:13] uh, scammers, right? So here as the, the target population, you get those random WhatsApp messages [01:17:20] and you roll your eyes or your hate the scammers or whatever. And then this reportage really revealed [01:17:26] that, you know, a lot of those scammers have been socially engineered themselves and human trafficked [01:17:32] into, uh, you know, forced labor for that. And I, I bring that up because I read that, I processed it, [01:17:41] I posted about it. And then I just reached out to the journalist and I was like, this was mind blowing [01:17:46] for me. I have this podcast. Do you want to, do you want to talk about it? And he said, yeah, I mean, [01:17:53] dude's Polish and he lives in Hong Kong. So there's a 12 hour time difference, but being able to do that, [01:17:58] uh, is, is one of great pride and one of great privilege. Uh, and I am grateful for that. And [01:18:06] then I think the next one is as it, as it points to this idea of reaching out to the community, [01:18:11] you know, at, at Blackout, I met another, I met a Cesar named George, so there are two of us. Um, [01:18:19] and we got to talking and, you know, as you can probably tell from my marketing past, like I have a [01:18:26] really hard time lying. It's like, you know, they were like, it's juvenile life insurance. It's a great [01:18:33] investment. I was like, that is garbage sauce, man. Like you are fleecing poor people. Um, so I, I don't [01:18:41] market anything I don't believe in, but I think that there's a huge problem of trust between [01:18:47] cybersecurity vendors and, uh, their buyers. Um, you know, Tomas, you and, um, BJ pointed this out [01:18:57] again when Kendrick brought it up, but you know, it's like, are they a partner or are they just, [01:19:02] you know, picking my pocket? So anyway, we got to talking, reformed this idea. Um, so there are two [01:19:10] Georges, uh, there's one on the buyer side, there's one on the commercial side, and, um, we're launching a [01:19:16] new podcast that's going to drop next week called bare knuckles and brass tacks. That's my shameless [01:19:21] self-promotion, but, um, it's our effort to kind of fix things. So it's called bare knuckles because [01:19:26] we're going to go after some hard topics, like, you know, how much event outreach is really required? [01:19:34] Um, do you gate everything? You know, all the, all the hot button issues, we're going to go at it with [01:19:39] bare knuckles, lay it bare. Um, and then, but come up with some solutions. So we want to talk to the [01:19:46] audience. We want to talk to leaders and, and, you know, there are some CISOs who are like, look, if you [01:19:50] control budget and expect to be sold to, and then there are some CISOs who are like, if you email me [01:19:55] anything, I'm just going to say, no, I don't know. I think that's helpful, but I think our goal is to, [01:20:00] you know, if we can kind of bring things together, I think maybe we could, we could have an impact that's [01:20:05] outside of both of our organizations. And I'm really proud of the work that's gone into that [01:20:09] mostly because it's unpaid and, you know, out of band from my, my, uh, working life. [01:20:17] That's awesome. Thanks for sharing. [01:20:22] Thanks, Nate. Thanks for, uh, joining us this evening and asking your, your question and [01:20:26] contributing to the conversation. Really appreciate it. [01:20:30] Oh, I do want to, I do want to say one thing again, in terms of bringing the community [01:20:35] back. So, you know, I just spoke to Nate this week. I don't know. Was it two days ago, [01:20:40] dude? Time is a flat circle, but you know, where Nate works, I don't have to reveal that [01:20:46] here. You can find him on LinkedIn, but you know, we had a question about something on [01:20:51] our side and I was like, look, I need somebody who works in your industry to kind of, I just [01:20:55] need your two cents. You know, I'm not trying to sell you anything. I just, you are in a better [01:21:00] position than I am. I mean, I can surmise things where you can just tell me directly. [01:21:04] And he took the time out of his day, uh, to do that. And that's, that is what this, [01:21:10] this whole kid caboodle is about. I thought it was awesome. So I just want to say thanks [01:21:15] for that. [01:21:16] Cool. Thanks for the shout out. And more importantly, thanks for reaching out. It was a good conversation. [01:21:20] I'm glad we met. [01:21:23] Awesome. Uh, Katie, over here. [01:21:25] Yeah. Thank you. Um, yeah, as we continue the conversation, um, I just, again, think it's kind [01:21:33] of fun to go back into the moments in your life that may have been, um, tipping points for you. [01:21:40] Um, you mentioned a couple and, and I don't want to pick one of these. Um, but, uh, you know, [01:21:46] you mentioned, you know, three winters, you kind of glossed over it to me. I thought, [01:21:50] well, I want to know more about these three winters where you're only heating your cabin with [01:21:56] firewoods. Like, well, there's three winters. And then you moved on to like moving in Key West next. [01:22:01] And I thought to myself, um, a lot happens, uh, to a person when they live in a place that they [01:22:07] heat with wood, uh, for three whole winters, uh, in, in terms of, you know, what you're thinking [01:22:12] about. And, and I don't want to say that's one of the tipping points, but what would you say, [01:22:16] you know, really is, you know, in terms of the largest tipping point or tipping points, [01:22:21] uh, within your, your career in life? Yeah, that's a good question. Um, [01:22:27] I think, well, I mean, the, the cabin was very informative and so far as it was a sort of, [01:22:35] uh, moribund period professionally, it was kind of all over the place and sort of out to sea, [01:22:40] but it slowed time down. And when you have to heat with wood, you are very attuned to the season. [01:22:46] You're like, Oh, it's cooling down. Um, so that was a very reflective time period. I would go as, [01:22:52] I would go really far back. And again, I took it for granted and I don't thank them enough, [01:22:58] but just to tell my parents who were scrapping things together. And, you know, when we moved [01:23:04] to the U S from Brazil, inflation in Brazil was at 4,000%. Right. So there was basically like, [01:23:10] we have to move while the money can buy us the plane ticket. Cause it's going to be worthless tomorrow. [01:23:16] And, but, but that they had the foresight to, to get me into computers early. And I don't know the [01:23:25] average age of everyone on this call, but like a VGA monitor compute, you know, like the big tower. [01:23:33] I mean, there was like a lot of money, right. It was like, you know, I think it was like $3,000 [01:23:39] for a family that didn't have a lot, uh, you know, two pennies to rub together, but they did it because [01:23:45] they thought like, this is how we're going to provide for our children in some way. Um, I, [01:23:53] it basically reminds me, I need to, to thank them more. Um, and then the last one, I would say, [01:23:59] the tipping point was that move out of formal marketing agency and over to a cybersecurity [01:24:06] company, um, which was speaking to, I think urban's point earlier, which was just believing [01:24:13] that I could, um, and then kind of throwing it in a hundred percent and being like, okay, [01:24:20] I can, I can double down in this industry because it's one that rewards creativity and curiosity [01:24:25] and learning and just being like voraciously hungry about it. And, uh, and that has, that's [01:24:32] served me well in other parts of my life is I've just learned, like, you have an insatiable [01:24:38] curiosity and that is something to lean into rather than kind of think as a liability. [01:24:47] Well, that is certainly evident, uh, in any interaction that I've had with you is how [01:24:53] incredible you are at it quite frankly. And, um, just kind of really commend you, um, for, um, you [01:25:00] know, every interaction that we've had. Um, I, I also think, uh, you just touched on it again, [01:25:05] you know, your leap from marketing to cyber, but I also thought it was funny when you said very early [01:25:11] on, um, what do all creatives do when they, uh, they get a job in marketing so they can get health insurance. [01:25:18] I mean, yeah, I mean, insurance is real in this country, man. [01:25:24] It really is. And, um, but what I appreciated about that too, is, um, we talk a lot about where, [01:25:30] where do we start? And I think again, you know, you and I did the podcast. I just met a woman the [01:25:35] day before who had, you know, transitioned from, um, from teaching into, you know, uh, cyber recruiting [01:25:41] and just that whole, um, you know, path where people, you know, sometimes need to make that leap. [01:25:46] And you just reminded me again tonight of how, you know, not to be afraid, right. For, [01:25:51] for everyone who's asking our advice about how you, you get into something. Well, [01:25:55] sometimes it might be something like that. What do creatives do when they want the insurance? [01:26:01] And then look, look how it ended up for you, I guess, you know, so I guess on that note, I mean, [01:26:05] I would just, maybe if you could, um, maybe, uh, expound on that a little bit more for people of just [01:26:10] that, um, pivot, uh, motion too, um, that you've, you've talked about all evening, but just kind [01:26:16] of, kind of some, put some finality on the amount of pivoting that you've done, uh, throughout your [01:26:22] career and what you're thinking about for the future. [01:26:25] Yeah. That's a pivot is the good, good word. Um, yeah. I mean, when I became the SEO copywriter, [01:26:33] it was literally like, what do I know how to do? What is my skillset? I can string sentences together. [01:26:39] Uh, cause I just spent two years in an NFP program doing that. And apparently they will pay you to [01:26:44] write. Um, so there, there is that pivot. And then when I got here and I wanted to start the podcast [01:26:52] and I got the buy-in to, you know, buy all the equipment and do it and convince them that it was [01:26:57] worthwhile because as a startup, we didn't really have any brand recognition. So it's like, let's just [01:27:01] start having conversations, um, uh, with leaders and being involved. Um, I didn't know anything [01:27:09] about podcasting. I'd been in a couple of bands. I kind of glossed over the fact that I was a drummer [01:27:14] for a lot of years. Um, and until I figured out that I am a morning person and not a night person. [01:27:21] Um, but you know, I had some like audio stuff, but I just kind of like muscled my way through it. [01:27:27] And, uh, please don't go listen to the first episode of the podcast. Cause they're real [01:27:31] boring. Um, and so once I did that, it wasn't like, okay, I, I know the podcast now I just listened [01:27:38] to a hell of a lot of podcasts to be like, Oh, okay. This is why they do that. This is what, [01:27:43] and just trying to make it better. And it's not just true of the podcast. It was true of everything. [01:27:48] It was like, okay, well, when I first came in from marketing world and you start learning all the [01:27:57] buzzwords very quickly. And, but you know, this is a industry that has a high degree of credibility. [01:28:06] And, you know, I immediately recognize that we're just going to get laughed out of the room. [01:28:10] If you're just throwing around buzzwords, okay. That means I got to go actually learn [01:28:14] about machine learning. So I don't sound like an idiot when we talk about machine learning. [01:28:19] Um, and so I think the pivot is like lean into the direction and then, I don't know, I'm incapable of [01:28:28] doing things half-assed. So I just go full bore that I will admit it can be a bit of a liability [01:28:34] because I can, I can go way down the rabbit hole, but, um, yeah, it's like you make the pivot and you [01:28:41] will have instincts that tell you like, eh, it's not really the right job. Or you'll have instincts [01:28:47] that are like, I think I like this. And if you do, then just apply energy to it. And, you know, [01:28:54] sort of wind down with this and it may be unpopular because death is unpopular in most parts of the [01:29:02] Western world, but, you know, spoiler alert, none of us gets out alive. Time is of the essence. It is [01:29:11] the only thing you truly have. And it's running out every day. Um, if you want to get real weird [01:29:19] about it, I carry a memento mori coin in my left pocket. Memento mori just means you could leave [01:29:25] this world, right? It's to remember death. You can leave this world at any time. And I try to use that [01:29:30] not as a morbid fascination, but as a motivator for like, yeah, I feel tired. Yes. I could just like [01:29:38] binge Netflix and I might start down that path and then I will check myself and I will feel like, [01:29:45] you know what, I'm not going to get this time back. I mean, how many times do I have to watch [01:29:49] Thor? You know, I grew up on comic books, but I don't really need, like, what am I getting out of [01:29:55] this? Okay. You know, pick it up, either go to sleep and get rest for the next day in the fight [01:30:01] or get some green tea or coffee in your body and crack open that other book because now's the time. [01:30:07] Or, uh, the other thing that I do is, uh, I coach my kids soccer teams because I am Brazilian and I [01:30:16] love soccer. So I am just as responsible for the next generation of soccer stars as I am, uh, [01:30:22] defenders. So I'm, I'll plan out exercises for my daughter's challenge league team because that's [01:30:29] something to do, but you have to lean in and you have to lean in hard and you have to lean in fast [01:30:33] because time is not on your side. Well, George, uh, thank you for that. Um, I was going to watch [01:30:45] the real housewives for this, but now I'm probably not, um, no, but in all, all kidding aside, no, [01:30:54] um, I am probably going to watch that because, uh, it is that high on my list of things to do. [01:30:58] Um, cause I don't coach my kids soccer team because I'm a bad person. [01:31:02] Mostly Katie, I feel like you and Russell and Tomas and a handful of other people's like Mary Galloway, [01:31:08] like you guys bend space time into like 36 hour days because yeah, because I talked to Mary Galloway [01:31:15] at RSA and then like the next week on LinkedIn, she's hosting a conference. I'm like, what? I mean, [01:31:21] people are doing amazing things, but it's like an incredible amount of hustle. [01:31:25] Well, but yeah, and all, and all kidding aside though, for real George, you know, like what a way [01:31:29] to, to, to bring us home and what a perfect moment too, because I mean, honestly, philosophically, [01:31:35] one of the reasons that I love spending time in this space that, you know, Tomas and Russell and [01:31:41] the, the rest of the CISOs that created this space a year and a half ago had graciously allowed me to [01:31:46] join, you know, about, I guess a year ago, eight, nine months ago, I don't remember. Um, but you know, [01:31:51] is, is that there is this, um, you know, collaboration and there is the fact that we take that time and we [01:31:57] stop and we listen to each other. Um, and so I think it's a perfect way to kind of pivot then over to, [01:32:03] to Russell and Tomas, uh, to, you know, kind of have their final thoughts as well, because, um, [01:32:09] yeah, what a great evening. And, and I am just, I thoroughly enjoyed it. You know, I thought I, [01:32:14] you know, I thought I had met you a few times and knew, knew, and they wouldn't have a lot of [01:32:18] surprises, but this has just been a fun journey and just, um, and really just so gracious of you to [01:32:24] share so much with us this evening. So with that, um, yeah, Russell or Tomas, I just want to pass the, [01:32:29] the microphone for your final thoughts. [01:32:31] Yeah. I was just going to say, Katie, I'm surprised you didn't answer the question with, [01:32:36] uh, around the, the average age, uh, uh, George average age of, of us mods, you know, we're like, [01:32:41] I don't know, 32, I'll say 32. Right. That sounds good. Right. That sounds right. Yeah. Yeah. I agree. [01:32:49] Russell, you want to, you want to ask a question that we'll sort of, uh, take us, take us home. We'll, [01:32:53] we'll start to wrap. Yeah. I think I'll just defer my question, but I wanted to make a comment, [01:32:57] you know, Katie, it would not be the same without you. Um, and we're, we're better because you joined [01:33:02] us. And, and I just say, you know, to everyone, I've not said this in a while. If you don't have [01:33:07] this on your calendar as a recurring reminder, eight to 9 30 PM, you're missing out. So many [01:33:13] things I learned, I plan my week around it. I always participate if at all possible. And [01:33:18] even tonight, George, just as like, like Katie said, just the, the mix of the, the global traveler [01:33:24] and the experiences you brought back this tonight have been just magic. So that, that's really what I [01:33:28] wanted to say, just acknowledge that. And thank you for hanging out with us tonight. [01:33:33] Yeah. It has been, uh, an honor and a privilege. Uh, and I am eager to, to come back, uh, next week [01:33:40] and take my rightful place in asking people questions. [01:33:44] And it, and it is interesting how we do find time to do this. And look, I think it speaks to [01:33:49] the passion that we all have, right? The passion as to why people come back every week to join in on [01:33:54] the conversation and ask questions and to listen and to, you know, Russ is, Russ is doing his, [01:34:00] his training, you know, with the, with, uh, with his military students, which I commend him for doing [01:34:05] that. I commend the students for, for listening and learning and wanting to learn about cyber. [01:34:09] You know, I'm on the West coast this week doing other things. And I have no idea where Katie is. [01:34:14] Uh, maybe she's home in Chicago. I would hope, but, uh, like our, our passion is what keeps this [01:34:21] going. And, uh, with that, I do want to sort of quickly remind everybody, you know, we've said this [01:34:27] a few times, we do this every single Wednesday, uh, because we, we actually do. And, uh, next week [01:34:33] we have, I want to encourage you all to come back next week. We have, uh, the CEO, the founder and CEO [01:34:38] of guard site, uh, John McLaughlin with John Mack as the, uh, often goes by, uh, will be joining us. So I, [01:34:44] I encourage you all to come back and tune in next week, uh, Wednesday, September 28th, uh, at usually [01:34:51] 8 PM Eastern time, or you can figure that out for your specific local time, wherever you may be. Um, [01:34:57] so George, I, I usually ask this last question and it was asked already, so I'm not going to ask it. Um, [01:35:06] somebody stole my question. I'm not going to say who it was, but it was a, it was, uh, um, a good question. [01:35:12] So I'm not going to ask you the last question. I did that reflection question, because you already [01:35:16] answered it, but I do want to one say a few things. One is I want to thank you for taking the time out [01:35:22] of your busy schedule, uh, for sharing your insight, your journey, uh, you know, as candidly as possible. [01:35:29] And you left some, some good gems for, for people as you left some very interesting, uh, thoughts around [01:35:35] your career trajectory and the different opportunities you've had, uh, throughout your particular journey, [01:35:40] which is still very young and you still continue to evolve. So tune into obviously the George's [01:35:46] podcast if you haven't already. Um, but I will leave you with the final words to take us home, George. [01:35:54] Oh, wow. Uh, so much responsibility. Um, yeah, I would just say both to, I mean, I think the commercial [01:36:02] side folks do it, but I would say to anyone here who's on the vendor is just think of ways to give back [01:36:08] to the community. Um, the day to day in, you know, the IR teams and defenders or even the threat hunters [01:36:16] is hard and, uh, they are just as worthy of, uh, admiration and, um, value as, as, uh, as the CISO [01:36:26] who controls the budget. So, um, yeah, just find ways on both sides to, to give back in some way, [01:36:33] whether that's mentorship from the, from the buyer side or, or value in the terms of free research on [01:36:39] the, on the provider side, that's where I would leave it. Awesome. Well, on behalf of myself and, [01:36:48] uh, the other moderators in our fireside chat, thank you everybody for, for tuning in. We'll see you all [01:36:53] next week. And, uh, and George, thanks again. Thanks for your time. Uh, so bye everybody. See ya. [01:37:03] Bye.