Fireside Chat w/Dave Cole, Co-founder & CEO @ Open Raven

[00:00:00] Hello, hello. [00:00:05] Everybody, thank you for listening. [00:00:14] Thanks for joining. [00:00:17] Yes, we got a trouble people joining in. [00:00:20] We've got Tom, we've got John Mack, we've got Ryan, we've got Henry. [00:00:26] Welcome to our weekly fireside chat. [00:00:31] We will get started in a minute, actually in four minutes or so. [00:00:38] Let me just get this room started. [00:00:40] Thanks everybody for joining. [00:00:43] It was good seeing a few of you last week in beautiful Las Vegas. [00:00:49] Although what happens in Vegas, I guess stays in Vegas, right? [00:00:55] Is that the motto? [00:00:57] Nobody's on stage to talk to me so I can crack jokes all by myself. [00:01:02] All right, let me get this room started. [00:01:04] Let's get some moderators in here. [00:01:06] We'll get Dave Cole to join us and then we will make a start. [00:01:12] So in the meantime, I got to get some theme music or something to play in the background while we wait for folks to join us. [00:01:21] Let me just set up this room. [00:01:24] In case you guys don't already know Dave. [00:01:29] Let's get his LinkedIn profile here. [00:01:35] Let's see Ryan has figured out how to play with the GIFs. [00:01:43] Now are they GIFs or are they GIFs? [00:01:46] I don't know. [00:01:47] I used to always call them GIFs. [00:01:49] But I guess they might be called GIFs. [00:01:52] Depending upon how you pronounce the G. [00:01:56] Like is it Gary or is it Jari? [00:01:59] Anybody want to raise their hand and pop up and tell me feel free to do that. [00:02:08] Of course. [00:02:10] There we go. [00:02:12] Look at Tom. [00:02:14] That's funny. [00:02:15] What is it Ryan? [00:02:16] Is it GIFs? [00:02:17] I've always been told GIFs I think. [00:02:22] But also, okay, I didn't know how to get that off. [00:02:25] So I guess just be careful. [00:02:28] Okay, let's see it goes away on its own. [00:02:30] It eventually goes away on its own. [00:02:31] Yes, that is correct. [00:02:33] I'm from it that I was stuck looking like that. [00:02:35] All right, I'll go back down to the audience. [00:02:36] Now that I know I'm not going to look like that. [00:02:39] All right. [00:02:41] See you Ryan. [00:02:43] Bye. [00:02:44] Dave Cole. [00:02:45] Quick microphone check for you, my friend. [00:02:48] Yes, sir. [00:02:49] How do I sound Tomas? [00:02:51] You sound loud and clear. [00:02:53] You sound loud and clear. [00:02:55] Excellent. [00:02:56] Is my hair okay? [00:02:57] Hey, hey, you know, Dave, I don't believe the people that have told you in the past that [00:03:02] you got a face for radio. [00:03:03] I would not buy that at all. [00:03:05] Thanks for that. [00:03:07] I needed it. [00:03:08] Your hair looks sharp. [00:03:10] Your hair looks sharp in the picture there, Dave. [00:03:13] Dave, you were in Vegas. [00:03:14] We didn't get a chance to connect. [00:03:16] I'm sorry. [00:03:17] I know you were busy. [00:03:19] All good. [00:03:20] I was waiting for you to text me, but you didn't. [00:03:23] So it happens. [00:03:26] All right. [00:03:28] Hey, Russell, quick microphone check for you, my friend. [00:03:31] Tomas, how are you? [00:03:34] Oh, my gosh. [00:03:35] We missed you last week. [00:03:36] I felt empty on Wednesday night. [00:03:38] I know why we didn't have it, but still, I had like this fireside chat. [00:03:42] I had a fire-sized hole in my heart last week. [00:03:45] I know. [00:03:46] It would have been a little bit of a difficult task to accomplish last week because we were [00:03:52] all very busy, you know, in conferences and in the meetings and the briefings. [00:03:57] You know, it was a lot of real work happening last week. [00:04:00] I don't know who's laughing at that. [00:04:04] I can't see. [00:04:05] Nobody believes that. [00:04:06] What are you talking about? [00:04:07] It was so much. [00:04:08] It was, I would say a lot, all of the work occurred after the normal work hours. [00:04:14] That's when the real work happened, all the networking and everybody connected up. [00:04:19] All right. [00:04:20] Let's see. [00:04:21] Hang on. [00:04:22] I've got entrepreneurship. [00:04:23] We're going to do some networking. [00:04:24] Oh, let's see. [00:04:25] What else are we talking about today? [00:04:27] You know what? [00:04:28] Let's just go with some chill vibes. [00:04:29] Chill vibes. [00:04:30] That sounds like a good one. [00:04:31] All right. [00:04:32] All right. [00:04:33] All right. [00:04:34] Now that I got the room set up, Hussein, quick microphone check for you, Hussein. [00:04:39] Testing one, two, three. [00:04:40] Testing one, two, three. [00:04:41] There it is. [00:04:42] There it is. [00:04:43] Hussein Saeed. [00:04:44] All right. [00:04:45] Dave, I'm just going to do some quick logistics, get it out of the way and then we'll get started. [00:04:46] So you can feel free to mute yourself if you want while I go to do logistics. [00:04:51] So, let's see. [00:04:52] Let's see. [00:04:53] Let's see. [00:04:54] Let's see. [00:04:55] Let's see. [00:04:56] Let's see. [00:04:57] Let's see. [00:04:58] Let's see. [00:04:59] Let's see. [00:05:00] Let's see. [00:05:01] Next, Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next Next [00:05:31] But we'll see. So in any event, if it's your first time joining us, we do this every single Wednesday. [00:05:36] We meet for about an hour and a half or so. So we have our guest this evening. [00:05:41] And that's Dave Cole, who's the co-founder and CEO of Open Raven. [00:05:44] And we'll get into Dave and what he's doing and what he's done throughout his career in a few minutes. [00:05:50] But we usually ask our guests questions for about 30 to 45 minutes or so. [00:05:54] And then we open up for the audience to raise a hand, jump up on stage and ask a question. [00:05:58] So just be patient as we went through the Q&A from the moderators. [00:06:04] But we will get you all on stage. If you don't want to ask a question live, you can feel free to put it in the chat. [00:06:09] And we will we will actually read it off to our guests. [00:06:14] Again, if it's your first time joining us, there's a little greenhouse on the top left of your screen right next to where it says Fireside Chat. [00:06:20] Looks like a little monoply house. You can click that house, join the club. [00:06:23] You can listen to some of the prior playbacks and see who are the upcoming guests that we have on the show by scrolling through the calendar. [00:06:31] And we are booked up all the way up until I think October. [00:06:34] So I will be adding some more events on the calendar so you can see that because we have some really good guests joining us. [00:06:41] Or we'll be joining us soon. [00:06:43] Again, just some quick guardrails for the conversation. [00:06:47] If you are a vendor in the audience, I know you want to sell us on your latest and greatest technology. [00:06:51] We ask that you please don't do that today. [00:06:54] Do that some other time. [00:06:55] This is not the time or the place. [00:06:57] I know we do have a CEO of a company and we will obviously allow Dave to tell us about that. [00:07:03] But this is really more focused on Dave and his journey, right, as a person, as a human being on this planet, doing good things and giving back to the community and learning a lot more about him and his experiences. [00:07:15] Obviously, there's always a time and a place for you to find out more about his company. [00:07:19] But if you are a vendor, please, we ask that you don't come on stage and try to sell us on that. [00:07:23] Use a different form to do that and have that conversation. [00:07:27] Without further ado, I'll just go really quickly around the room. [00:07:31] We'll do some intros. Dave, we'll leave you for last. [00:07:34] So I'm Tomas Maldonado. I'm the CISO at the NFL. [00:07:36] Russell, over to you. [00:07:38] Thanks, Tomas. And so awesome to be back again. [00:07:41] Russell Eubanks, been in cyber for a long time, been running my company, Security Ever After, for the last two and a half years and love to help people get their first CISO job. [00:07:50] Hussein, over to you. [00:07:52] Good evening, Hussein Syed. CISO at RWJ Barnabas Health. [00:07:56] Over to you, Katie. [00:07:58] Hi, good evening, everybody. I'm Katie Hanahan. [00:08:00] I have been in the industry for about 18 years. [00:08:04] I am at an interesting event tonight, though, and I'm realizing I can't seem to find a quiet spot. [00:08:09] I've been looking for the last 15 minutes. [00:08:12] So I may be in listen mode tonight. [00:08:14] But welcome, Dave. [00:08:15] Really excited to hear your story. [00:08:18] I'm looking forward to the discussion this evening. [00:08:23] Anil, over to you. [00:08:24] Thanks, Tomas. Anil Varquis, virtual CISO and co-author of the CISO Mentor. [00:08:31] Good evening. Looking forward to the conversation with Dave, hearing about your story. [00:08:35] So, Dave, thanks for taking the time out of your busy schedule to join us this evening. [00:08:43] And why don't you take a moment and introduce yourself? [00:08:46] And while you're working through your introduction, and you can take as long as you like with your introduction, [00:08:51] why don't you tell us a little bit more about you and your origin story? [00:08:55] Okay. So I was born in Ohio, raised in Battle Creek, Michigan. [00:09:04] And if that sounds vaguely familiar to you, it's probably because you've seen it on the back of a cereal box. [00:09:09] It is the home of Post and Kellogg's. [00:09:11] It's one of those small manufacturing towns that a lot of folks used to live in, [00:09:18] where we were sold on the dream that someday, if you did really well, [00:09:21] you'd be the person who got the drop prizes in the cereal box back when that was a thing. [00:09:27] I went from there over to University of Michigan. [00:09:30] So I'm a proud Michigan Wolverine. [00:09:33] And after going to school there and figuring out what I wanted to do very, very late in my time, [00:09:39] I fell in love with Los Angeles. [00:09:40] I came out to LA and said, dear God, this is the place for me. [00:09:45] The people were beautiful. [00:09:47] They were happy. [00:09:48] I always wanted to be near the ocean. [00:09:50] I'd fallen in love with the Jacques Cousteau shows. [00:09:53] For those of you who remember those as a kid, I always wanted to be a scuba diver. [00:09:57] There is not much diving in Michigan. [00:09:59] So I took the first job that would get me out of Michigan and into Los Angeles. [00:10:07] And it was in cybersecurity at the time. [00:10:10] I think we called it InfoSec or something along those lines. [00:10:13] I just didn't care. [00:10:14] It punched my ticket away from the hinterlands of Michigan off to Los Angeles. [00:10:20] And I took a job with Deloitte and Touche, where I started doing any of a number of engagements there. [00:10:26] And I thought, yeah, this is all right. [00:10:28] Deloitte was an amazing way to start my career. [00:10:30] But I should probably get out of this security thing like I promised to do. [00:10:33] And then a friend came calling at a company called Internet Security Systems, who had invented the first vulnerability scanner, invented intrusion detection systems. [00:10:42] And I was super intrigued by the technology. [00:10:45] And he offered me to come in and do penetration tests and incident response. [00:10:49] And I was dying to get technical again. [00:10:51] And so I went over there and inside it. [00:10:55] And it was amazing. [00:10:56] I mean, it was my first taste of a growth company. [00:10:59] And Tom Noonan was an amazing CEO to learn from. [00:11:03] And I rode that up and had a lot of fun as a consultant there doing pen tests and really mediocre incident response back in like the late 90s. [00:11:12] And probably equally mediocre pen tests. [00:11:15] And I realized from there that ISS had no interest in making Internet Scanner really turn into something more. [00:11:23] And it was becoming clear that people needed to not just have penetration tests and have consultants come in and run scanners, but they needed bone management. [00:11:30] So I bumped into Stu McClure and George Kurtz at the time who had started a company called Foundstone. [00:11:37] We compared notes and they said, well, would you like to come in and run product? [00:11:42] And I said, that'd be amazing. [00:11:44] I'm super excited about building something that can scan a class beat. [00:11:48] And went over there and I was their first product manager and was the product manager from the early days until the end, until we sold to McAfee at Foundstone. [00:11:57] Broke off there and went off to Symantec. [00:12:01] And the rationale for that was I fell in love with building products, working as a team to build something that we're immensely proud of. [00:12:08] And I also knew that I didn't know what I was doing. [00:12:11] I was totally making it up. [00:12:13] And we were figuring it out as we went at Foundstone. [00:12:16] And we'd done some good things. [00:12:18] We'd also made a horrendous amount of mistakes and I never wanted to do it again. [00:12:22] So I went over to Symantec, which was super hot at the time. [00:12:25] It's probably hard to remember those days. [00:12:27] But the stock had split three times in 18 months. [00:12:30] John Thompson was the CEO. [00:12:32] He's a tremendous leader. [00:12:34] And I felt like I had a lot to learn. [00:12:36] So I fell in with a great crowd over there. [00:12:39] Started out in security response. [00:12:41] And then went from there into the consumer business. [00:12:43] So I left enterprise security and I took over Norton at a time when it was fat and slow. [00:12:49] The mantra at Norton was, hey, fix this thing. [00:12:53] Let's go and make it the lightest and fastest product out there. [00:12:56] Let's restore Norton to its proud heritage and growth. [00:13:00] So that was a mission for about five years. [00:13:04] And around the tail end of that is when Symantec started to get exciting, go through a riff, change CEOs and so on. [00:13:11] I inherited all the enterprise products at that point, which is only important because I realized at that point that they had no interest in fixing the enterprise products, which was astonishing to me. [00:13:22] Shortly thereafter, I exited Symantec. [00:13:24] I ran back into my buddy, George Kurtz, who said, hey, McAfee is not going to fix their enterprise product. [00:13:31] We think that that whole market's there for the taking. [00:13:34] I said, funny story, George. [00:13:36] But I just came from Symantec where they wouldn't let me fix the product either. [00:13:39] He's like, well, we're going to try and go and take all their customers. [00:13:42] I said, all right, I'm in. [00:13:45] So I did that with George and CrowdStrike team, got them through the Series C. [00:13:49] And at that point, handed over the reins to an amazing product leader. [00:13:53] And then I went off and after a short break, went to Tenable to get them through their IPO. [00:14:00] That journey was two and a half years, got them through the IPO. [00:14:04] And then it was time to start my own company, Open Raven, which I can share more on later. [00:14:08] And that journey started in, gosh, in 2019. [00:14:13] So right before the pandemic and has been going on to today, where we're a post-Series B company and focused on reinventing data security for a modern era, really. [00:14:26] So more details on that later. [00:14:27] In between, we started, Jack Daniel and I of B-Sides fame, we started a podcast called Security Voices, which Tomas was an amazing guest on recently. [00:14:39] So that's probably a little, a bit of a side detour. [00:14:42] I've had a few that I, that I didn't mention, but an important one and one that goes on today. [00:14:46] We're not quite as prolific as y'all. [00:14:48] We don't have quite the size of the posse that you guys do, but we're on right around episode 50 right now. [00:14:54] So going strong. [00:14:55] We publish about every four to six weeks. [00:15:00] Wow. [00:15:01] Ohio. [00:15:01] Ohio. [00:15:03] To the bright lights of California, Hollywood, to the, to the shining star celebrity status of being a cybersecurity professional. [00:15:13] Am I overhyping it? [00:15:17] I probably shouldn't. [00:15:18] I don't know if everybody else caught that, but, you know, Dave worked with George Kurtz, Stuart McClure. [00:15:26] I don't know if you guys caught that, but those are, you know, important people in, in the, I'll say in the industry along the lines of, you know, if you've never heard of them before, maybe just Google hacking exposed. [00:15:39] You know, I've heard of the hacking exposed books and you'll, you'll see their name sort of printed on there. [00:15:45] But there's a lot to unpack here, Dave. [00:15:47] So I'm going to pass it over to Russell. [00:15:49] Russell, over to you. [00:15:51] Oh my gosh. [00:15:52] I was just like reaching for my hacking exposed books that are on my shelf. [00:15:55] And I'm just thinking memory lane and then ISS and all the things I was like, it's like, you've been talking about my career, the tools that I've used and the things that I've done. [00:16:05] Just, just so amazing. [00:16:06] And I really enjoyed the interview you had with Tomas on your podcast. [00:16:11] I learned a few things about my friend that I didn't know before. [00:16:13] Matter of fact, I told my family about a couple of them and I thought that was super cool. [00:16:17] So in, when you were with companies with such growth movement, ISS, Foundstone, Tenable, B-Size, and just so many things that are so important to how we do the things we get to do. [00:16:30] How did you know it was time to move on from just some amazing companies? [00:16:36] And I think we could talk like a half an hour about each one. [00:16:38] But how did you know when it was time to move to the next thing? [00:16:40] What was the trigger? [00:16:41] What was the indicator? [00:16:43] How did you make those decisions? [00:16:46] Yeah, to be fair, some of those were my decisions and some of them weren't. [00:16:49] So, you know, when you take the big job and if you're a product leader, I had a boss at one point who told me, when you take the big job, the bullet leaves the chamber. [00:17:00] And I thought, what a terrible thing to say to someone. [00:17:02] And I do objectively agree and still believe it's a terrible thing to say to someone. [00:17:07] What he was trying to say is, look, you've taken on this big job. [00:17:10] You're an important role. [00:17:11] Congratulations. [00:17:12] Congratulations. [00:17:12] It may or may not end with as you chose. [00:17:15] And that's certainly been the case in a number of instances where, you know, I may have agreed, but it wasn't initiated by me. [00:17:22] So, you know, sometimes, you know, it's very clear that you're not happy and you are good for one phase of growth, but you're not good for the next. [00:17:32] And I think this happens to founders all the time, and it certainly happens to people early in a company. [00:17:38] You know, for example, at CrowdStrike, I was a fixer. [00:17:42] You know, I am the person who historically has come in and I'll take your wounded, your damaged product line. [00:17:49] I'll go in, I'll reacquaint you to your customers, set up your net promoter score, set up your program, get you going. [00:17:54] But at the moment when it gets into maintain mode and when it gets mundane and when, you know, the CEO wants to drive and has a right to drive the product strategy, you don't necessarily need me anymore. [00:18:08] So, you know, in a number of those instances, you know, I sit down and there's all this friction and you look at it and say, you know what, I was the perfect guy for you. [00:18:17] And I'm not sure anybody could have done a better job for you two, two and a half years ago. [00:18:20] But right now, let's be honest, this friction that's here is coming from me being me, you being you. [00:18:28] And if you're the CPO and you're arm wrestling with the CEO, you lose every time and you should. [00:18:33] The CEO's got the big job. I have it right now. [00:18:36] And there's been times like I let a CPO go. I loved him. I thought he was great. [00:18:40] But having said that, he wasn't the right guy for that time. [00:18:44] And that's happened to me as well. [00:18:45] So, you know, some of it is choosing and looking at it and saying, gosh, this just I'm not happy anymore. [00:18:51] And there's not enough money in the world to be worth it at this moment. [00:18:54] I've made good money here and I need to be true to myself and the company. [00:18:57] And other times it's someone else telling me that and me looking at it and say, you know what, you're right. [00:19:01] You're absolutely right. I mean, I may feel hurt right now, but you're absolutely right. [00:19:07] There was a moment when this was good for me and good for you. [00:19:10] I'm not that guy at this point at this point. [00:19:12] So it's really a combination. I wish it was all my choice. [00:19:16] But having said that, you take the big job. [00:19:18] First rule of it is it's risky. [00:19:21] It's not always your choice. [00:19:24] That's so insightful. [00:19:25] And I totally get that of that. [00:19:28] Some decisions were made for you. [00:19:30] But I love what you said. [00:19:31] You know, what may be best for one phase of growth of the company may not be the right people, the right team, the right strategy for the next one. [00:19:38] So I really appreciate that insight. [00:19:39] And again, thanks for taking me down the memory lane. [00:19:42] Hussein, over to you. [00:19:48] Thank you, Russell. [00:19:50] So, David, a question around strategy here. [00:19:55] You know, tenable, sort of a scanning product, ISS scanning product, been a customer of both. [00:20:03] Ironically, customer of Symantec and then CrowdStrike as well. [00:20:08] They all play in the same space, right? [00:20:10] Some sort of detection and response. [00:20:12] So, when you go from one position to another, how do you strategize the differentiator there between how you're moving? [00:20:24] You know, there's different dynamics to that, but still playing in the same space, right? [00:20:30] So, kind of trying to grapple with that. [00:20:32] Can you expand on that? [00:20:34] Oh, man. [00:20:35] There's so many similarities across the product lines, but there's also key differences. [00:20:41] So, yes, I have done a heck of a lot of scanning in my life, probably too much. [00:20:45] And if you've got a sense of humor, I'll scan your data now. [00:20:48] You know, line them up. [00:20:49] So, yes. [00:20:50] I think at the core of almost every new security space is visibility. [00:20:57] Visibility is so prominent. [00:20:59] Matter of fact, we just did a podcast with Galina Antova, and I was digging into the industrial security space, which I know a little bit about, but not much. [00:21:06] And I got into the heart of it, and Galina basically said, you know, look, we're doing visibility. [00:21:11] And you look at it, what are we doing in cloud data right now? [00:21:13] We're doing visibility. [00:21:15] What drove people to do EDR? [00:21:17] The AV was so focused on portable executable files, you couldn't see anything beyond P files. [00:21:23] You know, you couldn't see the web shells. [00:21:24] You couldn't see the adversary activity. [00:21:26] It was visibility that was the key. [00:21:29] So, whether, you know, and you can go down the line. [00:21:33] Vaughan management, at the end of the day, the reason why people started to buy foundstone was we could scan a class B. [00:21:40] You know, we started, and that was, you know, that was the big thing, and that was what drove me crazy with ISS. [00:21:44] And part of the reason I wanted to do foundstone is I was in big clients, the big one, the last big one I did with Sun Microsystems. [00:21:51] And we just couldn't scan it at the time. [00:21:54] It just wouldn't work, and the reports were terrible. [00:21:56] Those of you who remember Crystal Reports, it sucked. [00:21:59] So, at the heart of what drove foundstone and a lot of these security companies is visibility. [00:22:06] And, yeah, a lot of the time that's scanning. [00:22:08] And part of the reason why it's scanning is, you know, if you do in motion, you have to be at the egress points, right? [00:22:13] You've got to be at the right point. [00:22:15] The beauty of scanning is you get things at rest. [00:22:17] You know, it's more of a proactive hygiene play in many instances, but not all. [00:22:21] So, that's part of the reason I think I've kind of gravitated to that, and some of it has just been serendipity, dumb luck, or a curse. [00:22:28] I don't know which. [00:22:29] I'll say this. [00:22:30] There's some key differences. [00:22:32] With antivirus, it is – the nice thing with antivirus is that there's a test community that was built up. [00:22:39] There's massive corpuses of malware. [00:22:42] That's partly the challenge. [00:22:44] But it's an easy scanning problem, and this is why you saw many endpoint AV companies is it is not hard to get, like, a terabyte of malware samples, do feature extraction. [00:22:55] And there's clear test parameters, you know, from AV tests, from AV comparatives, where you can see how you're doing. [00:23:03] So, that was super interesting. [00:23:05] I'll tell you, I didn't want to – at first, I really resisted going to Tenable. [00:23:10] Some investors that I love at Excel Partners twisted my arm and got me to go back into it, and I couldn't believe that bone management didn't have the level of testing that antivirus did. [00:23:22] And I think in that instance, the scanning job, it's – I think that industry is the poorer for it, but it is harder to test, you know, just given the setup you have to do for bone testing and all the different conditions. [00:23:34] So, the scanning job there was a little bit different, and as much as I tried to push it towards standardization, it just – it very much resisted that, partly due to industry inertia and partly due to, you know, the complexity of the problem itself and how different it was from scanning for malware. [00:23:50] But it was also kind of easy in a way because there's only so many vulns that matter, right? [00:23:55] You know, there's a ton of vulns, but there's only so many vulns that mattered. [00:24:00] But even then, because I think – and this is my own opinion – you know, I think there's a real lack of coverage, and that space is commoditized partially because no one's been able to set up a good test lab and articulate the differences between the products. [00:24:15] When I was there, and this might be different today, but we estimated that about every bone scanning product had coverage of about 60% of the CVEs that were out there, let alone the stuff that didn't have CVEs, which is appalling. [00:24:29] I just – it just isn't good enough. [00:24:31] And I think the absence of testing and standards and some of the complexities around it was what lent itself to being, in some ways, you know, perceived as a commoditized offering, even though there was very real differences between the products and the coverage. [00:24:43] Lastly, in contrast, look at data scanning. [00:24:48] And this one's been a shocker. [00:24:49] It's absolutely been eye-opening for me. [00:24:51] I mean, I've been building products for over 20 years, and I thought I'd kind of seen it all. [00:24:56] And data scanning in comparison to malware scanning and bone scanning is a nightmare because everybody's data is different. [00:25:03] In malware, I could go out and I could get, like, you know, a whole bunch of corpuses and bodies, like terabytes and terabytes of malware and build ML classifiers and really reliable detection. [00:25:14] And you could block a series of bones, and it would work pretty well. [00:25:17] But part of the reason why we've never had really good data security is it resists easy detection, and it's incredibly hard to build things that are highly accurate on the data side because everybody's data is so diverse, and often it's dirty. [00:25:33] The mime headers are wrong. [00:25:34] Some of it's compressed. [00:25:35] Some of it isn't. [00:25:36] Things like Avro and Parquet formats, you're only supposed to be a gig. [00:25:40] Almost every Avro Parquet file I've ever seen has been over a gig. [00:25:43] So, you know, it's just the scanning problems are incredibly different. [00:25:48] The approach has to be different and respected. [00:25:51] But at the heart of all of it, and I think at the heart of all good security, is visibility. [00:25:56] And that's 100% true. [00:25:58] What I'm aiming for from a product perspective is to show you your environment in a way you've never seen it. [00:26:05] I want to hit that itch in the middle of your back you just can't get to. [00:26:08] Feel that relief of, oh, I can see it now. [00:26:11] And then, you know, help you to stay on top of that ongoing. [00:26:15] And that's kind of at the, if we pull past the technology, which I've just gone into headlong, that's the feeling I'm after as a product leader. [00:26:26] Thank you. [00:26:26] It makes a lot of sense. [00:26:27] You're absolutely right. [00:26:28] Visibility is the key to developing any protection strategy, right? [00:26:32] If you can't see, you can't protect. [00:26:35] 100%. [00:26:36] Over to you, Anil. [00:26:37] Thanks, Usain. [00:26:42] Dave, tell us a little bit, again, about your journey in the context of how I prepared you for your new role. [00:26:48] You know, you've been with big companies, small companies. [00:26:52] What gave you the confidence to strike out with Open Raven? [00:26:56] Give us some thoughts about what those challenges were, especially the last few years, [00:27:00] with everyone facing different, you know, stop gaps and issues along the way. [00:27:07] Yeah. [00:27:08] You know, first off, I don't think anybody is really ever ready to start your own company. [00:27:13] And, you know, probably a bad analogy, but it's a little bit like parenting, where, you know, you're never quite ready for that first kid. [00:27:19] You just do it. [00:27:20] You know, at least that's how I felt. [00:27:24] And it was similar to starting a company. [00:27:27] You know, I had a realization. [00:27:30] It must have been four or five years ago. [00:27:33] I was sitting down with a couple guys here in Los Angeles who have been just great partners. [00:27:37] They're both investors in Open Raven. [00:27:39] It's a gentleman named Grant Miller at Replicate and Andrew Peterson at Signal Sciences. [00:27:44] And the three of us would get together on the regular. [00:27:47] Tenable was a customer of both. [00:27:48] And we would support each other and talk through things. [00:27:51] And they're both younger guys than I am. [00:27:53] And I realized that the difference between me and them, they'd had great careers. [00:27:57] So would I. [00:27:59] But they'd just gone for it, you know. [00:28:01] And that was something that I just needed to do. [00:28:04] And it was never going to be perfect. [00:28:05] And they affirmed that. [00:28:06] And listening to their pain and agony at times and their angst and so forth was incredibly enlightening. [00:28:13] And it just said, look, you just got to go for it. [00:28:16] You're never going to be 100% ready. [00:28:19] And sure enough, you know, these investors that I knew and who I'd worked with before, [00:28:24] all of a sudden when you turn the tables and you're asking them for money and you're starting a company, [00:28:28] things look very, very different. [00:28:30] And even if I had done another company with another, you know, and were like, you know, [00:28:35] watching George Kurtz or, you know, being alongside Amit Yuran, [00:28:39] there's only so much you can learn in that fashion. [00:28:42] You just have to do it. [00:28:44] The analogy I would use, and I'm going to use a lot of them. [00:28:47] So apologies in advance. [00:28:48] Some of them probably won't work. [00:28:50] But the feeling I got as I did this was that I'd always been kind of watching the kitchen. [00:28:54] I had that seat at the chef's table where, you know, you're sitting and you're watching the chefs cook. [00:28:59] So you think, oh, wow. [00:29:00] You know, I totally see how they do that. [00:29:02] Of course I can go do that. [00:29:03] Of course I can make that meal. [00:29:05] I just watched someone make it like three times in a row. [00:29:07] And then you step in the kitchen, you realize you didn't watch nearly close enough. [00:29:12] There's only some things you can learn by doing. [00:29:14] And that was very true as we jumped in. [00:29:17] Certainly deep product experience, having a great network, having all sorts of people you can talk to. [00:29:23] I can't overemphasize how valuable that network's been, especially since we've been handicapped. [00:29:29] You know, we were born right before the pandemic and had to read a lot of early category signals over Zoom and so forth, which was awful. [00:29:38] If I hadn't built up the network and the relationships before that, I'm not sure OpenRaven would be a company right now. [00:29:44] So I just can't overemphasize how important the network was because there's just so many things you can't anticipate. [00:29:52] And there's so many things that even though you may have watched it, you may have watched them make the meal. [00:29:56] When you have to make the meal, it's totally different. [00:29:59] And you're on calls with VCs negotiating. [00:30:03] And it's like playing against the house in Vegas. [00:30:05] The VCs you negotiate with, seed investing and everything else, they do that all day, every day, or at least many times a week. [00:30:15] You do it maybe once or twice, maybe three or four times in your entire company's history and maybe in your life. [00:30:21] The house is stacked against you. [00:30:23] And in those situations, you have to get a whole bunch of help. [00:30:26] So that was the first kind of eye-opener is that, you know, you've got to figure out how to work with the house. [00:30:34] Not necessarily beat the house, but get to a good deal with someone who does this all the time and you don't. [00:30:41] And it doesn't matter how friendly you are when you're sitting across the table. [00:30:44] It is a different game. [00:30:46] So that was an eye-opener. [00:30:49] The joys and kind of rejection and clumsiness of fundraising. [00:30:53] So I'll stop there. [00:30:54] I've gone on some long monologues. [00:30:56] But that was kind of the first eye-opener. [00:31:00] Oh, Dave, that's great. [00:31:01] I mean, you actually led into my follow-up question, you know, about networking and, you know, how real, how, you know, imperative is to have that developed over time. [00:31:12] We talk about that as a collective. [00:31:14] You know, last week, a lot of us were at Black Hat. [00:31:17] And most of us at a, you know, at a senior level, we're doing a lot of meet and greets, right? [00:31:22] We're connecting with that, whether it's those other leading-edge firms, but also those VC companies. [00:31:28] So it was great to talk about that and have that go-to sounding board that you can bring about ideas, but also what's worked, what hasn't worked. [00:31:38] So I appreciate that insight. [00:31:40] Thank you, Tomas. [00:31:42] Thank you. [00:31:42] Awesome. [00:31:45] Dave, I've known you for a while, and we'll leave some of the stuff that we chat about offline. [00:31:56] But just curious, you know, you decide to open or to create a company just before a pandemic, and you obviously didn't know this was going to occur. [00:32:09] What did you think once the pandemic hit? [00:32:13] Like, what was that like? [00:32:14] What was that experience like for you? [00:32:19] Wow. [00:32:20] So anybody who's fortunate enough to be in a position to start a company and, you know, and get funded by a great fund, no one wants to hear you complain. [00:32:33] You know, it's a little bit like we joke that when you start a company and the comparison here is like, you know, let's say you're choosing to rent a car. [00:32:43] If you choose the Jeep Wrangler and you choose an adventure, you don't get to complain about the bumps in the road, the lack of AC or the bugs in your teeth. [00:32:51] So there's to a certain degree, you know, you look at it and you're like, all right, I signed up for an adventure here. [00:32:57] And I've been through companies. [00:32:59] I've been with companies through the global financial crisis. [00:33:02] You know, we were there, you know, at 9-11, you know, and when and at the crash 2002 and so forth. [00:33:09] You know, I had the benefit of watching other entrepreneurs and people handle it. [00:33:13] So it wasn't without precedent, you know, in some ways, and at least, you know, if you look at crisis as a precedent, and I have watched some good leaders handle that with grace. [00:33:24] I think there were some key moments. [00:33:27] There were some really key moments where it was hard to discern what the right thing to do is. [00:33:34] And one of those was the PPP loans. [00:33:36] There was advice all over the place. [00:33:40] You know, we had, we were trying to decide whether or not we accept the term sheet and raise a round. [00:33:45] We had plenty of money in the bank. [00:33:47] But conventional wisdom was, you may never be able to fund this company for two to three years. [00:33:52] You'll run out of money if you don't take money now in March. [00:33:55] So one of the first kind of crises was, oh my God, like, you've got to grab the money now from this investor that you barely know, because you may never be able to raise money again. [00:34:07] That was a little different. [00:34:09] And not a complaint, again, a very highbrow problem. [00:34:12] And it was Kleiner Perkins, who have been amazing. [00:34:15] But it was a shotgun wedding. [00:34:17] You know, we had a term sheet. [00:34:19] And I was told in no uncertain terms by a number of people, if you have a term sheet, the world is closing down. [00:34:27] You know, you take the term sheet because to do so would be grossly fiscally irresponsible. [00:34:32] So we did it. [00:34:34] And that was one where, candidly, I would do it again going back. [00:34:38] But, of course, three months after that, we had the best year that VCs ever seen in security. [00:34:43] So that was kind of an interesting decision point. [00:34:46] The PPP loan was the next one. [00:34:48] A ton of companies were getting PPP loans. [00:34:51] And we made the call. [00:34:53] We looked at it and said, you know what? [00:34:54] We just did a venture round. [00:34:57] We're not going to do this. [00:34:58] It just doesn't feel right. [00:34:59] But there was a number of people who did. [00:35:01] And there was a rationale for why you might want to take the PPP loan at the time. [00:35:06] But that was another moment where, you know, as a team, you know, my team were asking about it. [00:35:11] And I had to, I just walked them through the logic. [00:35:13] We talked through it and it brought us together closer as a team, you know. [00:35:17] But there's been so many moments along the way. [00:35:20] The latest of which is we had four guys working on our core engine in the Ukraine who were very much dedicated to Open Raven. [00:35:29] And if, you know, it was hard to know what to do during the pandemic, nobody tells you what to do, what the right scenario is when you have four employees who are, you know, dislocated and threatened by a war that invades their country. [00:35:48] So that one was even more challenging. [00:35:50] You know, you're a young company yourself. [00:35:52] You know, you always have to look at it as if you're fighting for your life, no matter how well funded you are, because that's the reality. [00:35:57] And at the same time, you have people in a very real fight for their life that you depend upon in a way. [00:36:03] How do you support them and at the same time do the right thing by the company? [00:36:08] Those were incredibly hard decisions and much harder than the pandemic. [00:36:12] But again, you step back through the lens and you look at it and you say, we're incredibly blessed. [00:36:17] We're well funded as a company. [00:36:19] It's a hell of a ride. [00:36:20] I did this for the journey. [00:36:22] And I have no right to complain if the journey has a few more bumps on the road, a few more mountains, a few more, you know, swampy ditches and so forth than what I expected. [00:36:32] What a ride. [00:36:36] Awesome. [00:36:38] There is a question in the chat before I get to Kevin. [00:36:41] I'm just going to read off this question that came in in the chat. [00:36:45] So question for you, as collection and uses of data are only increasing, do you see any opportunities or potential products or plans for standardizing collections of data? [00:36:58] Or do companies differing uses require disparate methods of storing, et cetera? [00:37:05] That was a question from Jennifer Sanders. [00:37:07] Wow. [00:37:08] Great question. [00:37:08] I should have prefaced the question and say she is an attorney and focus on privacy, if I'm not mistaken. [00:37:18] So that's the, I don't want to call it angle, but that's the sort of perspective on that question. [00:37:24] Yeah. [00:37:25] I'm going to take it in two directions. [00:37:29] I was part of a conversation late last year that really opened my eyes. [00:37:34] It was, it was at a conference and in November and they asked, it was about open source data. [00:37:41] And it intrigued me given what we do is like, oh, come again. [00:37:44] Like this has been a real problem. [00:37:46] Like we ended up releasing a tool called Mockingbird up on GitHub. [00:37:51] You can find it off our website. [00:37:53] And we released it because open, there was no open source data and no one's just going to give you their data to test with. [00:38:00] But it was such a pain in the neck to find data in order to simulate a customer environment so that we could get to the right level of accuracy and repeatability with data classification. [00:38:12] So we created this tool in order to create synthetic data. [00:38:16] And I was fresh off that experience. [00:38:18] And then I was at this conference, which will remain nameless. [00:38:22] It's a good one. [00:38:23] But having said that, it's a private conference and so on. [00:38:26] And they said, there's going to be a move towards open source data. [00:38:30] Here's all the reasons behind it. [00:38:32] And I believe that they're right. [00:38:35] But I think we've got to get further along as an industry before that becomes a thing. [00:38:40] I think the data cleansing tools are getting better. [00:38:43] They're becoming more available. [00:38:45] But it's a hard problem. [00:38:46] The data cleansing tools are still not readily available. [00:38:49] There's very little incentive, I think, for people to clean their data and then make it available. [00:38:54] So I think there's issues with the tooling. [00:38:55] There's issues with the incentive structure. [00:38:57] But I think it's immensely powerful. [00:38:59] And I think we will get to a point to where there is genuine open source data. [00:39:03] It's not going to be anytime soon, though, is kind of my gut. [00:39:07] I think it's simply going to take a long time to get there. [00:39:10] And we may have to fix the incentive structures first. [00:39:12] In terms of normalization of vendor data sets, history has shown us, at least in security, that that's incredibly hard to do. [00:39:23] There's this Slack group called Get1K where we were talking about this just the other day when we saw the new standard hit that Amazon has been pushing on, [00:39:32] where it's normalization of security telemetry to go into SIMs and so forth. [00:39:37] And I looked at it, and my kind of snarky question was, how'd that sticks and taxi work out for us? [00:39:43] Did we solve IOC formatting? [00:39:45] You know, and you look at it, and we've made some good strides. [00:39:49] You know, there's some good security standards out there, at least ones that are really functional. [00:39:54] Look at, you know, MITRE ATT&CK, which I think has really solved some problems. [00:39:58] Look at CVSS, which has done some clever things and has really helped. [00:40:02] And then you look at, hey, have we ever been able to normalize product telemetry to the point to where it isn't a dumpster fire inside a SIM in order to correlate things? [00:40:12] And the answer is not so much. [00:40:14] And I'm not sure. [00:40:15] It's going to be really hard to make progress on that. [00:40:17] I hope we do. [00:40:18] I think it's important. [00:40:19] But having said that, if you look at why, I think there's some intractable problems. [00:40:25] One is it gets right into your data model. [00:40:28] And how well does your data model that directly supports your business that you came up with support that format? [00:40:34] Changing data models and migrating them are really stinking hard. [00:40:38] Secondly, some of those, the differences in the data and the context that you're able to deliver and how you present it is part of your core IP. [00:40:46] Why would you want to normalize that and genericize something that's like, that's your advantage? [00:40:51] You know, third, it's just a lot of work. [00:40:53] And fourth, there's so many diverse data sources. [00:40:56] Can we really normalize it down to just a core set of things that would be meaningful? [00:41:03] And I think once you do, then something new and crazy comes up. [00:41:07] You know, think about what it would have looked like before to have data inside a SIM. [00:41:12] Now, go ahead. [00:41:13] Throw Azure, AWS, and GCP into it. [00:41:16] Boom. [00:41:17] You know, needs of the cloud are fundamentally different. [00:41:19] Throw data from an industrial control system into it. [00:41:21] Boom. [00:41:22] Everything looks entirely different. [00:41:23] Now, go back and come up with a normalized format for all of that, and you'd probably have, like, files. [00:41:29] You know, so I think, by and large, it's an intractable problem. [00:41:32] Well, Jennifer's not here to say whether she has a follow-up or not, but if she does, she will put in the chat. [00:41:45] So, great response. [00:41:47] Thanks, Dave. [00:41:48] Kevin, actually, before I get to Kevin, just a very quick room reset. [00:41:51] If you just joined us, we're joined by Dave Cole, who is the CEO and co-founder of a company called Open Raven. [00:41:58] And I don't think we've actually gotten into the Open Raven piece just yet in full detail. [00:42:03] So, maybe we'll spend some time sharing a little bit more about that. [00:42:07] So, if you just joined us, again, this is our weekly Fireside Chat. [00:42:10] We do this every single Wednesday. [00:42:12] We usually ask questions for about 30 or 45 minutes or so. [00:42:15] But if you do have a question, we did open it up for a Q&A from the audience. [00:42:19] So, feel free to raise your hand, and we'll bring you up on stage. [00:42:21] So, without further ado, Kevin, over to you. [00:42:24] Hey, how you doing, everyone? [00:42:25] Thanks, Tomas, for having me on. [00:42:28] Hey, Dave, you brought up some interesting names. [00:42:30] The funny thing is, I was at E&Y in the late 90s with George, Stewart, all the Fallenstone guys, Chris Procise, Gary Will. [00:42:45] So, it was kind of interesting that you brought those names up. [00:42:49] It makes me think back to my days at E&Y. [00:42:52] But one of the things I wanted to ask you is, you talk about the normalization. [00:42:57] Funny thing is, a writer from TechTarget contacted me the other day once the announcement was made about the project that Splunk and Google and AWS and a bunch of other companies were doing for normalization. [00:43:12] One of the things that comes to mind is, I think the common event format, Seth, was around, you know, back in the early 2000s. [00:43:21] So, it'd be interesting to see how that comes along. [00:43:24] But my question for you is, what made you go on this journey around a data security capability, given your somewhat different background from the companies you work with, whether it's in startup mode or whether it's, you know, something like Tanable. [00:43:42] So, what made you go on this journey around a data security route? [00:43:47] Oh, what a great question. [00:43:49] And, yeah, wow, you've seen some things, too. [00:43:51] The honest answer is, we looked at it, and it was the thing that CISOs kept saying that they felt like they couldn't see their data. [00:44:03] They didn't know where it is, what it was, or how it was being protected. [00:44:06] And we looked at it and said, and first off, you know, going back to what I said before, I said, aha, pattern match, core visibility problem. [00:44:14] Great security categories are built when there is a core visibility problem present. [00:44:19] It's a primal need to see things. [00:44:21] Once you see it, you can't unsee it. [00:44:23] You want to maintain that visibility. [00:44:25] That is the hallmark of a great market. [00:44:27] Secondly, I looked at it and said, okay, are there any scary companies in that space? [00:44:32] Is there anybody who you're just going to go in, and they're probably going to eat your lunch? [00:44:36] And we looked at it, and we didn't see any great data security companies. [00:44:39] I mean, having worked at Endpoint, I was super proud of what I did at CrowdStrike. [00:44:44] I was like, there's no way in heck I want to go against my former team. [00:44:48] I looked at authentication and identity, and I have a natural distaste for it. [00:44:52] I just think it's incredibly hard. [00:44:54] There's an old joke. [00:44:55] It says, how long does it take to complete an identity project? [00:44:58] The answer is two CISOs. [00:45:00] You know, I wanted nothing to do with it, and I know very little about it. [00:45:04] So, you know, we looked at it and said, okay, what about data? [00:45:08] And we couldn't name anyone. [00:45:09] And if you follow out the shared responsibility model, I think what Phil Venables has famously [00:45:13] called the shared fate model now, which I totally agree with, what are you left with? [00:45:20] And when you carry it all through, you're left with identity and data. [00:45:24] So we looked at it and said, you know, the famous quote, it is inevitable. [00:45:28] So we looked at it and said, the fact that there will be an amazing data security company [00:45:34] born out of the data economy and everything that's happening is inevitable. [00:45:39] Why not us? [00:45:41] And let's start now. [00:45:42] And that was really what drove us to it. [00:45:45] That and a healthy dose of naivete. [00:45:47] If anyone had told me all the things we had to do, I think I may have reconsidered. [00:45:52] So I would think your views around zero trust is somewhat interesting, I would think, given [00:45:59] that, you know, data, I mean, at the heart of everything is data. [00:46:04] And I think if you can secure the data, I think that's kind of like, you know, you have innate [00:46:09] some type of zero trust because at the end of the day, you're able to, you know, secure [00:46:13] what matters most to the organization. [00:46:16] Yeah, there's so many facets to it. [00:46:19] And, you know, I'm, I mean, zero trust to me, probably for some of you all too, I look [00:46:25] at and I kind of scratch my head. [00:46:27] It's everything and it's nothing all at once. [00:46:29] But yeah, at the end of it, you know, the last mile of any leak of any breach in most [00:46:34] incidents is data. [00:46:36] Not always, you know, there's places where that's not the case, especially as you get [00:46:41] into operational technology. [00:46:42] But having said that, it's certainly, you know, the instant, it's certainly what's, what's [00:46:47] going on in many instances. [00:46:48] And if you look at it, and I saw this at CrowdStrike, we get, we get to the end of an incident [00:46:53] and they'd say, okay, all right, we found the adversary. [00:46:55] All right, we figured out what they did. [00:46:56] We saw the lateral movement. [00:46:57] Okay, they're here. [00:46:58] And boy, they got into that data. [00:47:00] And they all look at each other and you're like, so what is it? [00:47:03] Shrugging the shoulders. [00:47:04] I don't know. [00:47:05] You know, let's, let's figure out it's, you know, it's, it's 30 terabyte JSON blob, you know, [00:47:11] have at it. [00:47:11] And the answers that are in there tell you whether or not you got a GDPR response or not. [00:47:16] And then I went over to Tenable. [00:47:18] And I was amazed at the lack of progress on prioritization. [00:47:23] And I think it's, it's very telling when you see Cisco buy Kenna and you see this entire [00:47:27] aftermarket for just trying to make sense out of vulnerabilities. [00:47:30] And one of the first things I did at Tenable was kick off a data science team because we [00:47:35] had all this great data and we just weren't taking advantage of it. [00:47:37] And figuring out how to, you know, things like decent asset heuristics to tell you what [00:47:43] assets are most important. [00:47:44] I mean, we've done a lot of good work on threat-based prioritization, but asset criticality was meager. [00:47:50] And then you look at it and say, okay, well, that's nice. [00:47:53] You can do some basic things around asset criticality. [00:47:55] But what about data intelligence? [00:47:56] What about, what about data, data context for everything from monitoring to vulnerability [00:48:03] remediation? [00:48:05] And the sad reality was it never even been considered because most people didn't have [00:48:09] any success with it, even on premises. [00:48:11] And the problem has changed dramatically in the cloud. [00:48:13] So I think one of the cool things and one of the exciting things about this space from [00:48:17] my perspective is we have the chance to create data intelligence and that visibility that can [00:48:24] not only prevent leads kind of last mile in a breach and incident, but also we've got a [00:48:28] chance to make monitoring better. [00:48:30] We've got a chance to make vulnerability remediation better if we can provide that context at the [00:48:35] right time and at the right moment. [00:48:36] And at this point with so many bones, so many attacks, so few people to deal with it, I think [00:48:43] any, any kind of progress we can make in that area of reducing alert fatigue and help with [00:48:47] prioritization is welcome. [00:48:53] Thanks for that. [00:48:54] Thanks for that question, Kevin, and follow on question. [00:48:58] If anybody has a question, feel free to raise your hand. [00:49:01] We'll bring you up on stage. [00:49:02] I did see a question in the chat from Tahar. [00:49:05] The question is, what was your journey? [00:49:09] How long, what was your journey? [00:49:11] How long was the journey to raise funds, especially early stages to, to get support around proof [00:49:19] of concept phase without strong sales? [00:49:21] I'm curious. [00:49:23] Yeah. [00:49:24] And this is one where your mileage varies. [00:49:27] I mean, I was, you know, CrowdStrike did very well and I was part of the hard yards there [00:49:32] and knew the investors very well. [00:49:33] And then I went into, you know, they basically, the investors convinced me to go into Tenable [00:49:39] and that was a very visible success with the IPO. [00:49:43] So, you know, long story short is I was very fortunate. [00:49:46] I had two companies that had my, my dirty fingerprints on that IPO'd within 12 months. [00:49:51] So fundraising, obviously, at that point was quite easy for the seed round. [00:49:58] At that point, we had our choice. [00:50:01] I would say at every round. [00:50:04] And I think most entrepreneurs would tell you this. [00:50:06] It gets more difficult. [00:50:07] And this is one of the things I've learned along the way is for the seed round. [00:50:12] You're really telling a story and you're selling the team, the team and the dream. [00:50:16] After that, with your series A, they want to see product and they want to talk to real [00:50:20] customers. [00:50:21] All right. [00:50:22] That's your first test. [00:50:23] You move along and, you know, through your subsequent rounds and it is much more about [00:50:29] hard numbers and it is a lot less about the story and the team. [00:50:35] What did you deliver? [00:50:36] What did you do? [00:50:37] And those metrics don't just have to be good. [00:50:41] They have to be right. [00:50:43] They have to be appropriate and they have to pattern match for that VC, for that situation. [00:50:47] So as you can imagine, the early days, you know, especially if you've got a great background [00:50:51] and you've done important things, you know, things that people value recently. [00:50:55] Awesome. [00:50:55] Those early rounds aren't hard. [00:50:57] Those later rounds are really, really challenging. [00:51:00] And that's part of the reason why you see a bunch of companies fall off and really struggle [00:51:04] to raise that series B and beyond, because it doesn't matter how good your story is. [00:51:09] It doesn't matter how good your team is. [00:51:11] You know, it's the old, you know, Jerry McQuire, like show me the money, but instead it's [00:51:15] show me the numbers. [00:51:16] And that point, you know, the numbers can't just be good. [00:51:20] The numbers have to be right and right for that investor. [00:51:22] And you have to match the thesis and you have to get along with them. [00:51:25] And it has to be the right timing, the market conditions. [00:51:28] So yeah, it's easy in the beginning. [00:51:31] If you have a strong background and you know investors, it gets much, much harder for everybody [00:51:36] as the rounds go on. [00:51:38] And I'll say that that's where the level field, where the playing field is leveled somewhat. [00:51:43] You know, bluntly, if you're a, an entrepreneur who made it past those early stages and didn't [00:51:50] have the background like I do or other people do, and there's plenty of those that do, and [00:51:54] they're super impressful. [00:51:55] And you get to those later stages, well, at that point, you're in an equally good position [00:52:00] as me or anybody else, because the numbers are talking much more than you ever will. [00:52:04] Wow. [00:52:10] Such a great insights. [00:52:12] Tomas had to step away for just a second. [00:52:13] He'll be right back. [00:52:14] It's just so interesting to hear that flow and that question and then the answer and all [00:52:20] of your experience behind that answer of what's necessary in each of the rounds. [00:52:24] It's just been so valuable. [00:52:25] George, great to have you on stage. [00:52:27] I'd love to hear your question for Dave this evening. [00:52:30] Hey, yeah, thanks. [00:52:33] Russell, this is your black hat. [00:52:34] Total pleasure meeting a lot of other people out there. [00:52:37] Hey, Dave, I wanted to piggyback off of what you were saying here about your experience as [00:52:43] chief product officer moving through these successive phases. [00:52:47] So now that you had your turn in the barrel as a founder and a CEO, rather than coming in [00:52:56] at the behest of investors or just expertise, what are some lessons you've learned along the [00:53:03] way in terms of the culture you wanted to create around product development and generally [00:53:11] the company, you know, as if you could speak to both experiences as a product leader and [00:53:17] now as a CEO, executive leader of a company? [00:53:22] Yeah, they're very different. [00:53:25] And I'll say that I did not understand that when I took the CEO job and said that I would [00:53:31] run go to market instead of product. [00:53:33] When you're creating, I'll kind of lean on my strength and my 20 years in product. [00:53:40] When you're the type, the type of culture that I go for when I'm building a product organization [00:53:45] is one that empowers the ownership across the product team, where you want a wide variety [00:53:53] of people to be able to write their own specs, lead their own projects and have feature teams [00:53:58] to get together that support them, that are full stack, that feel fully empowered. [00:54:01] And I told my team this today, and I've said this to all my previous teams, you know, you [00:54:07] don't want a product organization to run like a Swiss watch. [00:54:10] If you're solving unsolved problems before, if you're doing things that test the boundaries [00:54:15] in a brand new area, you're not going to be on time every time. [00:54:20] What I want instead is I want a swatch watch. [00:54:22] I want a plastic swatch watch where I can see every gear move. [00:54:26] And what I require my teams at scale when I'm running product is I want weekly. [00:54:31] Updates at first, I want everything designed to be three months or less. [00:54:35] And then I want updates every week on how it's going. [00:54:38] And I expect when they get within the month of delivery at that point, I want a date. [00:54:43] And then I want to see, you know, updates more frequently. [00:54:46] And I want to be working through launch at that point. [00:54:48] And then I want a delivery checkpoint. [00:54:49] So it's very much a spirit of recognizing that hard things sometimes take longer, scoping [00:54:56] them way down, having a clear checkpoint when things are being designed and a checkpoint [00:55:03] where the team is presenting the work, not just the PM. [00:55:06] And at that point, what I also want is typically what I've done. [00:55:09] We did this at CrowdStrike. [00:55:10] And I tried to pull this into Tenable, sometimes successfully, sometimes not. [00:55:13] I want five customer interviews. [00:55:14] If I can't see, it's either in confluence or it didn't happen. [00:55:18] And I want to see five customer interviews with notes. [00:55:21] And, you know, if I'm your product leader and I don't see that, if it's not in confluence, [00:55:24] it didn't happen. [00:55:25] And if I don't see your five customer interviews that are there, then I don't know how I can [00:55:29] pass your product in most instances unless it's like an internal infrastructure type initiative. [00:55:34] So that's the product story. [00:55:36] I'll say on the CEO side, it's incredibly different. [00:55:39] First lesson there was get ready for rejection. [00:55:44] I think especially if you grew up on the product side, the sheer amount of rejection that people [00:55:50] on the sales side face and the amount of calluses, that was what I started calling it. [00:55:57] Like, oh, I got to build up my rejection calluses so that when Tomas ghosts me, you know, it doesn't [00:56:02] hurt my feeling. [00:56:03] Sorry, Tomas. [00:56:03] But, you know, that happens all the time. [00:56:08] Learning not to take that personally and knowing that it's whatever is, you know, it's just not [00:56:15] that person's time. [00:56:16] It's not that place was probably the biggest thing. [00:56:19] And learning also how to take those kind of hard knocks and those difficult times with [00:56:25] the investors and with sales and not translate that back to the team with the wrong energy [00:56:31] was a really big lesson early. [00:56:35] In short, you know, if you were on the product side and you decide to become CEO, first off, [00:56:40] congratulations, you're now a go-to-market leader. [00:56:42] You're not a product leader anymore. [00:56:43] Your job is to sell to investors and then to customers. [00:56:46] And oh, by the way, when you're selling those salespeople that you, you know, you've worked [00:56:51] with before, but again, you've never been that maybe, you've got to learn from them the [00:56:57] That's the trick of going out with unbridled enthusiasm and getting kicked in the shins and [00:57:03] getting ignored and getting punched in the gut and dusting yourself off and coming back [00:57:06] with that same enthusiasm the next day and projecting optimism to your team. [00:57:10] That is the hard part of it all in my estimation. [00:57:13] I mean, I think that's a really good point in terms of like at that stage in your career, [00:57:19] you're still learning fresh lessons. [00:57:22] So thank you. [00:57:23] Thank you for sharing that. [00:57:24] And it's just so insightful. [00:57:29] And I'm telling you, my hand feels like I've been writing too many notes and little one-liners [00:57:33] and zingers and history of cyber from what you've talked about already, Dave. [00:57:39] I know we'll have some more questions. [00:57:40] But Dave, I want to give you an opportunity to, as Tomas was introducing you and getting [00:57:45] us ready, can you tell us a little bit more about your company, OpenRaven? [00:57:50] Not the salesy part, but just the part of how we can understand what problem that you're [00:57:56] solving right now for your customers, potential customers? [00:57:59] Yeah. [00:58:00] There's three problems that we target. [00:58:03] The first one is just, again, we said it before, it's just baseline visibility. [00:58:06] We want to basically take someone from a place to where they don't know where their data is [00:58:11] located. [00:58:11] Maybe they're worried about the mistakes they've made, the shadow data services that are sitting [00:58:17] out there. [00:58:17] Or some people have called it ghost data that's sitting out there that they don't know about. [00:58:22] That's typically the stuff that bites you. [00:58:24] You know, oftentimes folks will do a great job with the things they know about. [00:58:27] They'll lock it down. [00:58:28] It's the things that someone spun up but forgot to spin down, whether it was during QA, during [00:58:33] test, you name it. [00:58:36] But that's the stuff that often gets you because you don't put the same attention into config. [00:58:39] You don't expect it to run very long. [00:58:41] And lo and behold, it's there. [00:58:43] And I can't tell you almost every POC. [00:58:45] I think every POC that we've done without question has something like that. [00:58:51] So the first thing we want to do is the first problem we're solving is we want you to not [00:58:55] only see but to be able to readily understand your data at a glance. [00:58:59] So that's kind of problem number one. [00:59:02] And that's data at rest. [00:59:03] There's good data in motion solutions out there. [00:59:06] We're not one of them. [00:59:07] The reason why we chose data at rest versus data in motion, I saw there's a question on [00:59:11] data in use. [00:59:12] I mean, this space is horribly complex in ways that others aren't. [00:59:16] We chose it because we want to be an OG pen testers and security people. [00:59:21] We wanted to kind of paint the data perimeter, if you will. [00:59:25] And I want to see all the things. [00:59:26] And if I'm looking at stuff in motion, inherently, that's reactive. [00:59:30] And it's also because your average amount of dark data is somewhere between 60% and 90% depending [00:59:36] on who you are and whose data you believe. [00:59:39] We wanted the 100%. [00:59:40] We wanted to go after the at rest 100%. [00:59:43] That's kind of step number one. [00:59:46] And there is a ton of complexity underneath that because there's huge differences in how [00:59:51] the different companies go about doing it. [00:59:53] And that is, I could go on, and that's a really interesting journey in and of itself. [00:59:59] You know, how do you analyze data at rest without moving it? [01:00:03] Because if you try and move petabytes of data and, you know, billions of objects, you're done. [01:00:08] You know, you're done. [01:00:09] You just, you cannot move it. [01:00:11] And the reality is most people don't even want you to touch their data, which is why we focused [01:00:15] on a serverless model where the customer's own lambdas touch it. [01:00:18] And then at that point, you have a situation where you have to be really, you have to be [01:00:23] really good about how you enable them with cost controls. [01:00:26] If it's their lambdas that are touching, they have to pay for it. [01:00:29] So that core visibility problem, honestly, is at the heart of any good modern data security. [01:00:34] And it's an incredibly hard nut to crack. [01:00:38] But having said that, you know, we feel really good about that, especially for unstructured [01:00:43] and semi-structured data, which I think is, you know, a lot of where the modern risk is. [01:00:48] And that's where a lot of the challenge is. [01:00:49] It's a much easier problem on the structured data side. [01:00:52] And again, I can get into the details on this, but that's problem number one. [01:00:55] The second problem is identifying conditions that lead to data leaks and breaches. [01:01:00] What do I mean by that? [01:01:02] Go on Greyhat Warfare, greyhatwarfare.com, and you'll see S3 buckets, digital ocean spaces, [01:01:10] Azure blob storage. [01:01:12] Type in passport. [01:01:12] Passport. [01:01:13] What you will see, sadly, is a bunch of open buckets out there that have passports in them. [01:01:20] This is what I mean by conditions that lead to leaks and breaches. [01:01:24] It's misconfigured data stores that lead to data, you know, being leaked and breached outside [01:01:33] of environment. [01:01:33] It might be passports. [01:01:34] It might be SSH creds. [01:01:36] It could be GitHub keys. [01:01:38] You name it. [01:01:38] But these are the conditions where if you knew about it, you could stop it and prevent [01:01:44] it before it became an incident. [01:01:46] And that's really taking the data context that you build through the inventory and classification [01:01:52] stage, which comes after the mapping and the location, and matching that to network and [01:01:58] kind of infrastructure context. [01:01:59] So think about use of multi-factor authentication. [01:02:03] Think about use of encryption, delete protection, backup, you know, all of these things. [01:02:08] And, you know, identity and access control permissions and so forth. [01:02:12] Matching that context together with the type of data and making sure that it's the right [01:02:17] fit. [01:02:18] If it's cat pics, it doesn't matter necessarily if it's out there on an open S3 bucket. [01:02:23] If it's payment cards, clearly, you know, you should feel differently. [01:02:27] But doing that and kind of honing in in that fashion and identifying those potential leaks [01:02:34] and breaches and incidents and turning something that could have been a really bad day, bad week, [01:02:38] bad month into something that's like a five, 10 minute task is job number two. [01:02:44] The third one is guardrails. [01:02:46] And this, you know, the guardrails concept is getting to be quite popular. [01:02:50] What it really is, is it's defining the rules that matter about your data for your business [01:02:55] and being notified when things go off the rails? [01:02:58] What do I mean by that? [01:02:59] You may only want certain data in certain locations in order to manage the scope of your [01:03:06] high trust audit, your PCI audit. [01:03:08] You may only want certain types of data to be in a certain area because you have a partner [01:03:13] contract that says that you'll handle that data in a certain way and you will keep it [01:03:18] restricted to a few places. [01:03:19] Only certain people can touch it. [01:03:20] Those policies and those rules about that data historically have never lived anywhere but the [01:03:27] paper they're written on. [01:03:28] And we've had, you know, we've had gentleman agreements and, you know, polite agreements [01:03:33] to stay in a gender, in a neutral, gender neutral way about that. [01:03:37] And no one's ever had to, you know, worry about the enforcement of that and whether or not [01:03:41] they're truly guardrails in place. [01:03:43] With where we're going with the data economy, that will no longer be okay. [01:03:46] It will be a question in the future. [01:03:49] We have this agreement that you will handle our joint data together in this way. [01:03:53] What assurances are you giving me? [01:03:56] And that moment is what we're preparing for and what you can do today with guardrails. [01:04:02] And it's as easy as, you know, pretty much what I described before for, you know, generic [01:04:07] leak and kind of breach conditions doing the same thing but using your own language and [01:04:13] your own rules or the rules that apply to that data in that location for that time or for that [01:04:18] configuration. [01:04:18] Does all that make sense? [01:04:21] It totally does to me. [01:04:22] I love those three problems solved, that idea. [01:04:26] But, you know, the conditions one, though. [01:04:29] You know, S3 is all, it's not internet facing by default. [01:04:33] I mean, what's the, is it training? [01:04:35] Or are there, why is it that training of the engineers to know how to configure it, to monitor [01:04:41] it, to look at cloud trails? [01:04:44] Is there a single cause for the conditions that lead to breaches and leaks? [01:04:51] Is there a common cause there? [01:04:53] Or is it just like a diverse mix of maybe hygiene things when in a cloud environment? [01:05:00] Yeah, that's a good question. [01:05:02] Let's pick on S3 for a moment. [01:05:03] And I'm going to explain from my vantage point why I think you see so many S3 leaks and breaches. [01:05:11] So first off, part of the reason you see it is because it's the oldest. [01:05:15] S3 was the very first, I don't know how you count it, but it's the very first popular. [01:05:19] It's the granddaddy of all public cloud services. [01:05:22] It was the first service that AWS stood up in 2006. [01:05:25] So part of the reason you see breaches and leaks there is there are enormous freaking mounds [01:05:31] of data inside S3. [01:05:33] And it is literally the junk closet of the internet. [01:05:36] There is everything you can imagine in S3. [01:05:39] And it's been accumulating there since 2006. [01:05:43] Since the first day of Facebook, there has been S3 when Facebook became commercially available. [01:05:50] Just think on that for a moment. [01:05:51] So part of it is just being fair to the people at Amazon and S3. [01:05:56] It's been around the longest. [01:05:57] It's got the most data. [01:05:59] And it's the biggest target. [01:06:00] So part of this is just, you know, it's a gravity and just a time thing. [01:06:06] You know, it's accumulated it. [01:06:07] Secondly, tell me software that's been out there for the better part of 16 years that hasn't [01:06:15] become horribly complex. [01:06:16] Like, show it to me. [01:06:18] I've never seen it. [01:06:19] So part of what plagues S3 is it's been around for 16 years. [01:06:24] And the acronym for S3 is simple storage service. [01:06:27] There is nothing simple about S3 today. [01:06:30] It is complex. [01:06:32] And, you know, identity and access control inside Amazon is also complex. [01:06:38] It's really challenging in order to get it right. [01:06:42] And then you look at it and say, all right, how many people inside your environment need [01:06:47] access to S3? [01:06:48] Well, because it's so generic and there's so much data there, oftentimes a lot of people [01:06:53] need access to it. [01:06:54] So you take it and you look at it and you say, okay, it's got a ton of data in it of a ton [01:06:58] of different varieties. [01:06:59] It's been around for 16 years. [01:07:00] So it's pretty complex. [01:07:02] You've got a ton of people from data science to product to sales and marketing who all need [01:07:08] to access it. [01:07:09] That is the recipe for a disaster. [01:07:12] And that's exactly what you get. [01:07:14] You know, you, you, it's, it's just, it's, it's just got a massive surface given the number [01:07:20] of companies that are using it, a ton of different types of data, a ton of people accessing it. [01:07:24] And it's got all the complexity of a service has been around for 16 years. [01:07:28] And then you multiply that by the mind numbing complexity of identity and access management. [01:07:33] And then let's say that you're one of those poor unfortunate souls that has a multi-cloud [01:07:37] environment. [01:07:38] Great. [01:07:39] You have to then turn around and do the same thing for Azure blob storage, Google storage, [01:07:44] and whatever other data services you're using. [01:07:47] It feels very much like an unwinnable battle. [01:07:49] So, you know, we've, we've got a long way to go as an industry in terms of putting the [01:07:55] genie back in the bottle. [01:07:56] And that's exactly why we spent a ton of time in S3. [01:07:59] That's so, you know, I think it's not, it's not a, you know, I've heard people say, oh, [01:08:06] the people with these S3 breaches, they just didn't understand shared responsibility. [01:08:10] Nonsense. [01:08:10] I think they understood it fine. [01:08:11] It's just the practical realities of securing that much data at anything, you know, looking [01:08:16] like scale is incredibly hard. [01:08:19] Wow. [01:08:22] And I think we've got plenty of job security, whether we've got cloud or not, but like you [01:08:26] said, the complexity and then diversity of cloud. [01:08:29] And then you got your on-prem, if there is on-prem things as well, just so many, so many [01:08:34] places to, to know, to do. [01:08:37] And then when, when the interface changes or features are added, it just adds and makes [01:08:42] the problem even more untenable. [01:08:45] I really appreciate that answer. [01:08:47] Ryan, amazing to see you. [01:08:50] I imagine you've got a few questions here, but I'd love to turn it over to you to ask questions [01:08:55] you have, Ryan. [01:08:55] Thanks, Russell. [01:08:57] Hi, Dave. [01:08:58] Nice to meet you. [01:08:59] I'm Ryan and I Rosado. [01:09:00] I've been around the block a few times on the fireside chat here. [01:09:04] Love the story and just how you're making my brain just go on like overdrive with inspiration [01:09:10] and thoughts and data security. [01:09:12] Um, I had two questions. [01:09:14] Um, we'll see if you have time for them, but one of them definitely is, you know, as you've [01:09:18] talked about some different roles, right. [01:09:19] From like leading product security and then leading really go to market. [01:09:24] Um, and then right. [01:09:25] Starting your business. [01:09:25] I'm just really curious about how you really discern. [01:09:28] Um, it sounds like you are definitely an individual who gets a lot of ideas and, and how do you discern [01:09:33] like which ones to really support and like which ones you're like, no, that's maybe not the best [01:09:38] either use of your time, or maybe that's not a good idea. [01:09:40] Like what is that process and like, what is, you know, what, what does Dave have to do to [01:09:44] really get behind an idea? [01:09:47] Um, yeah. [01:09:49] Cause I'd love to really know more so how you identify ideas that you're like, no, that's [01:09:53] not right for now. [01:09:54] Or that's not right for me. [01:09:57] Yeah. [01:09:58] Yeah. [01:09:58] Um, that wasn't a small question, Ryan. [01:10:02] I never said they were small. [01:10:03] I said I had two. [01:10:04] So that's just the first one. [01:10:06] Okay. [01:10:06] Well, let's, let's pick that apart. [01:10:08] I mean, so first off, I, I am, um, if, if I could go back in time, like I could never [01:10:15] do medicine or anything like it. [01:10:16] I just, I'm kind of squeamish around, around that sort of stuff. [01:10:20] I just don't think I can handle it, but I'm a big believer in reading and understanding [01:10:24] the brain and neuroscience. [01:10:25] And if we think about ideas in the part of the brain that tackles, um, big, big problems, [01:10:31] it's the subconscious brain. [01:10:34] And that's the part of your brain that needs white space. [01:10:37] So part of like the idea generation process thrives on the white space you create when [01:10:44] you step away from the computer. [01:10:46] So the first step in getting good ideas is really getting the hell away from your laptop, [01:10:52] getting away from your devices and just allowing things to soak a little bit and giving yourself [01:10:59] the white space for your brain to work a problem. [01:11:01] Now it turns out your brain works way better when it's primed. [01:11:04] So one of my tricks is I get up stupid early in the morning. [01:11:07] I usually get up around 420, 430, and then I prime my brain. [01:11:11] I sit down and I work for a good 30 to 40 minutes and I try and focus on, sometimes I [01:11:17] totally fail and just do email. [01:11:18] So I'm no wonder Ken here. [01:11:20] Um, but I try and prime my brain on a hard problem. [01:11:24] And then I step away and I go do my workout with my trainer and the trainer Renee's part of [01:11:29] my magic because I don't have to think about my workout. [01:11:31] I just work out with her. [01:11:33] And then my little brain starts to process with that white space. [01:11:36] I gave it on the idea. [01:11:37] And then I, you know, I chew on it. [01:11:39] I chew on it. [01:11:41] And then afterwards, typically the first thing I do is I call someone. [01:11:44] I say, okay, all right. [01:11:45] I got this thing. [01:11:46] It might be super dumb. [01:11:48] And I had one of these today after talking to a couple of customers and, you know, I start [01:11:53] to run it past people and beat it up. [01:11:54] And then I start to hone it and then I give it some more white space and I step back and [01:11:58] I, and then I start to write because when you write, you know, you have to structure it [01:12:02] and you have to think through it. [01:12:04] And then at that point, you know, I might, if it, if it doesn't suck at that point, and [01:12:07] sometimes it does, if it doesn't suck at that point, I'll share what I wrote and I'll [01:12:12] give it to a couple other people who are, you know, kind of early thought partners and [01:12:17] beat it around. [01:12:19] And it just kind of progresses from there where I'll get a broader audience, a broader audience, [01:12:23] a bigger level of commitment to it. [01:12:25] But the key along the way is not some untold level of rigor, but it's not falling in love [01:12:31] with it. [01:12:32] You know, to me, you have to be incredibly judicious. [01:12:35] You can, you can tip over a whole bunch of stones, but you got to be careful what you [01:12:39] reach down and grab. [01:12:40] You know, at that point you own it and you've got to do something with it. [01:12:43] So I think if I have a fault in that area is I probably tip over a few too many stones [01:12:49] and it hurts my focus at times. [01:12:51] But having said that, you know, sometimes you find absolute gems and things that, you [01:12:56] know, completely unlock another door for you. [01:12:59] But for me, the answer is give yourself some white space, talk to people, vet it, write [01:13:07] it down, vet it some more, and then just look at it and say, you know, is this more important [01:13:13] than the other things that I'm doing right now? [01:13:15] It's a zero sum game for my time attention. [01:13:16] If I do this, there is something else I'm not going to do. [01:13:19] Is it worth it? [01:13:21] You know, and sometimes the answer is yes, but not right now. [01:13:25] And that needs to be an okay answer too. [01:13:27] Hopefully that answers your question, Ryan. [01:13:28] Yeah, no, I was just curious how you've kind of come to, like you said, you know, be CEO [01:13:34] meant going to be more of a go-to-market, you know, not versus like a seller and creator [01:13:39] of product and having your own business. [01:13:42] You know, how did that idea really cultivate? [01:13:44] So that makes a lot of sense. [01:13:45] And actually, it's almost creepy. [01:13:47] I'm trying to think of a better word because I don't like the word creepy, but that's actually [01:13:50] how I think about a lot of things. [01:13:53] And Adam Grant, if you follow him, he actually said especially the same thing about like your brain [01:13:58] really works and that white space comes to surface when he says, actually, it's when [01:14:03] you're usually in the shower because that's usually when you have nothing to distract you. [01:14:07] So a lot of people get their best ideas in the shower, but I'm the same way. [01:14:11] I'll wake up around 4.30 and hit the gym. [01:14:13] And I literally, I'm like, man, he's reading my mind. [01:14:15] I always tell people I don't want to use my brain in the morning. [01:14:18] I'll go to a class and have someone tell me exactly what muscle to use and where and how [01:14:23] and why and the number of reps. [01:14:24] Yeah. [01:14:24] Yep. [01:14:25] So it's always really nice to see that I'm not crazy and I'm not just doing my own thing [01:14:31] that some people who've been relatively pretty successful are doing something similar. [01:14:36] My second question was more so around mentorship and what value has that had in your life? [01:14:43] More so, especially around starting your own business. [01:14:46] Maybe what is the best piece of feedback you've ever received? [01:14:49] And, you know, where does mentorship really fit into your life or who are you mentoring and why? [01:14:56] That's kind of really an open-ended question or five. [01:14:59] Yeah. [01:15:01] You know, mentorship is, I mean, my, it's incredibly important to me on both sides. [01:15:10] And I'll say my first manager in technology was a guy named Tom Shaheen, who started a company [01:15:19] 20, you know, 25, maybe even 30 years ago called Net Portfolio that you've never heard of, [01:15:26] run out of Lake Elsinore, Michigan. [01:15:29] And not Lake Elsinore, Michigan. [01:15:31] What am I saying? [01:15:32] It's totally different. [01:15:33] I've screwed up the name. [01:15:34] Lake Elsinore is down in San Diego. [01:15:35] But suffice to say, sorry, Tom, I've totally forgotten what lake you're next to. [01:15:40] But Tom, Tom's been with me the whole time. [01:15:44] And, you know, we've kind of long since passed the moment where Tom can give me tech advice [01:15:50] on things that are meaningful. [01:15:51] Not because Tom isn't active. [01:15:52] He still is. [01:15:53] I mean, he's been coding his whole life and building applications. [01:15:56] But because, you know, I've gone so deep in security into a place where he's just, he's [01:16:01] been focused elsewhere. [01:16:02] But I'll tell you, he's still the first person I go back to. [01:16:06] If I just need a safe place and I need to talk to someone and he's listening in here, you [01:16:11] know, Tom's put me back to getting that person I needed. [01:16:15] So, you know, and I've got a bunch of people. [01:16:17] I mean, I feel incredibly fortunate that I've got a bunch of folks like that in my network [01:16:21] things. [01:16:22] You know, some folks are other CEOs that folks here in L.A. that I got to sit down with and [01:16:33] learn from them, like Andrew and Grant, who I mentioned earlier. [01:16:37] But, you know, yeah, there's all different aspects of my life and I have different there. [01:16:43] Now, mentorship for me and kind of giving it back, it's, you know, first and foremost, [01:16:47] I have a commitment to anybody who joins the company that, you know, during that time, you [01:16:53] know, I feel incredibly responsible for their career and what they learn from me and what [01:16:58] I give to them. [01:16:59] And it was one of the fun things about interviewing Tomas is you can really hear his passion for [01:17:03] how he takes care of his team and serves them. [01:17:05] I think that was one of the really cool things that came out of the podcast there. [01:17:09] And I think it's something that I aspire to as well is during that time, you know, I can't [01:17:14] promise anyone I'm going to make them a ton of money or, you know, we're going to IPO or [01:17:19] anything like that. [01:17:19] But I can promise them that, you know, I will help them get to whatever that next step in [01:17:25] their career is and I'll give them an experience they can build off and jump from. [01:17:29] And that's, you know, so my first obligation is always to the people who have entrusted their [01:17:34] careers to me at that time. [01:17:37] I've done things outside of that. [01:17:39] There's a group here called the Heart of Los Angeles Youth where I've mentored a 15-year-old [01:17:47] boy when I was back in my late 20s. [01:17:49] And I should have moved on and probably done that with 10 more kids, but I stuck with him. [01:17:54] And to this day, I'm still sort of his big brother and his mentor. [01:17:58] So I kind of failed at that whole pass the torch and move on and just sort of stuck with [01:18:02] Jonathan. [01:18:02] So in that sense, you know, I've done that and I just I don't have time beyond being a [01:18:08] good dad and everything else in order to expand that out. [01:18:10] But it's something I hope to do. [01:18:12] In terms of the industry, if someone reaches out to me who's another entrepreneur, you know, [01:18:19] I try and do what so many people did for me is at least spend a little bit of time with [01:18:23] them and share what I've learned and give them my honest opinion. [01:18:25] But having said that, part of the reason we started a podcast is I wanted to find a way [01:18:32] to scale myself and I wanted to provide a way to provide advice and provide my voice and [01:18:37] also interview other super talented people so they can hear their voice so that I could [01:18:42] scale my message and scale my mentorship, if you will. [01:18:45] And the same thing for Jack. [01:18:46] I know Jack Daniel, who does it with me, kind of feels the same way and allow them to hear [01:18:51] my voice and a bunch of other people and leave a legacy in the industry of these uninhibited, [01:18:57] non-sponsored conversations where we're just asking earnest questions about people who are [01:19:03] doing the job across the broad spectrum of areas. [01:19:05] So that's that's also a facet, I think, of mentorship and giving back to the industry, [01:19:10] which is which is super important to me. [01:19:13] That's awesome. [01:19:14] And yeah, no, I think that's one of the best parts of coming to the fireside chat is hearing [01:19:18] about like the mentorship and really just learning about people's differences and then also what [01:19:24] makes us all very like unique, but also very similar. [01:19:27] And I just want to say this totally went over my head, but about an hour ago Tomas said something [01:19:32] about like you interviewed him on a podcast and I was like, oh, what podcast? [01:19:36] Like, how come I haven't heard it? [01:19:37] And then it's like, oh, duh. [01:19:40] So, you know, that was an amazing podcast, Security Voices. [01:19:43] I don't know why I didn't put that together sooner, but I did just listen to that a week [01:19:48] or two ago and I definitely really enjoyed it, especially hearing you interview Tomas. [01:19:53] And I did think that was a very unique angle you guys had to take and I really enjoyed it. [01:19:57] So thank you for all of your insight and for your for answering my questions. [01:20:02] I apologize on behalf of Russell for not warning you that my questions are usually not simple. [01:20:07] I say that, of course, jokingly to Russell, but it was nice meeting you and thanks so much [01:20:11] for being on our show. [01:20:12] Oh, awesome. [01:20:14] Thanks, Ryan. [01:20:15] Great questions. [01:20:15] Appreciate it. [01:20:17] Thanks, Ryan. [01:20:18] Thanks for jumping up on stage and thanks for the shout out. [01:20:21] It's not all about me. [01:20:23] It is about Dave Cole, who's in the building. [01:20:26] I'm excited that he's here. [01:20:28] We've got a few more minutes with Dave. [01:20:29] So if you do have any questions that you want to ask Dave, feel free to raise your hand. [01:20:33] We will bring you up on stage. [01:20:35] There was a question, Dave, I saw in the chat from Tahar. [01:20:39] And if I can find it, there it is. [01:20:40] Sounds like a great tool. [01:20:42] Is your tool approved for regulated industries, federal health manufacturing? [01:20:49] It depends on which one. [01:20:51] So hit me up. [01:20:53] You can find me on LinkedIn or just shoot me a message at David Open Raven. [01:20:56] And, you know, let's figure out what you need. [01:21:01] We have our SOC 2. [01:21:03] You know, we've done all the basic things. [01:21:05] But if you're looking for FedRAMP, alas, as a young company, I'm not FedRAMP yet. [01:21:10] As has exactly no space. [01:21:13] We hope to someday to be able to be all grown up and be FedRAMP and all of that. [01:21:18] Can we run in GovCloud? [01:21:20] Absolutely. [01:21:22] So it really, it depends on what you're after. [01:21:25] Just, you know, drop me a line. [01:21:27] And hopefully you can tell from this, you know, we pride ourselves on transparency. [01:21:31] The Open and Open Raven. [01:21:33] You know, yes, we have open source out there. [01:21:36] Tools like Mockingbird that I mentioned before. [01:21:38] But a lot of it's just about transparency. [01:21:40] And, you know, we'll tell you, unlike some in the industry, we'll tell you pretty well, [01:21:45] you know, pretty easily if we're a good fit. [01:21:47] You know, I've been in the community for 26 odd years now. [01:21:50] Like I intend to leave it in good shape and in good name. [01:21:53] And that comes from being really honest about what you can and can't do. [01:22:00] Thanks for that, Dave. [01:22:01] Thanks for answering that question. [01:22:02] Thanks, Sahar, for asking your question. [01:22:04] Dave, what are you reading? [01:22:06] What are you listening to? [01:22:08] I know you're doing your podcast. [01:22:10] What's on your either audible list or your reading list lately? [01:22:15] Oh, all right. [01:22:17] So I have I have three different sources of stuff at any point in time. [01:22:22] So one and importantly is I read with my son. [01:22:25] I taught him how to read back in the day. [01:22:27] And he and I read together now, which is one of my greatest joys. [01:22:31] We are reading The School for Good and Evil, which is awesome. [01:22:36] So Manchinani. [01:22:37] And that's a lot of fun. [01:22:39] And I think we just finished book number one. [01:22:41] We've got like five more to go or however many there are. [01:22:43] It's really, really good. [01:22:46] For fun, I am a sci-fi fantasy geek. [01:22:49] So I'm currently reading Pariah by Anthony Ryan, along with a CISO friend. [01:22:54] So we have sort of an informal book club, him and a couple other people. [01:22:58] And it's all fantasy sci-fi. [01:23:00] That's what I read right before to bed to put my brain down so I don't wake up at two [01:23:04] in the morning spinning. [01:23:05] It turns out sci-fi fantasy does an awesome job of that. [01:23:10] Third is I listen to books for business. [01:23:13] And I am also, I'm listening to a book with another CISO friend right now by Henry Prahl over [01:23:22] at Open Table, who recommended to me Vlakov Smil. [01:23:26] I might be butchering his name. [01:23:28] I think it's called Data's Don't Lie. [01:23:30] And Vlakov has written a bunch of books. [01:23:32] And it's pretty interesting tidbits about all sorts of things, you know, diminished down [01:23:37] to like four or five minute blobs. [01:23:39] Prior to that, there's an amazing book called Don't Trust Your Gut. [01:23:43] Which the author describes as money ball for life. [01:23:46] And if I'm to get into more businessy and kind of really interesting books I've read that [01:23:52] have had an impact, there's a book called Your Brain at Work, you know, kind of going [01:23:57] back to the previous part of the conversation by a guy named David Rock. [01:24:01] And it is a fantastic book on applied neuroscience. [01:24:06] And he does such a great job of saying, hey, here's how your brain works. [01:24:09] Here's an anti-pattern. [01:24:10] Here's a failure state. [01:24:11] Now I'm going to go through why this person in this vignette had this failure state. [01:24:16] And then I'm going to go back into it and show you how, you know, an alternate vignette [01:24:21] where they avoided it by applying what I just told you. [01:24:23] It is freaking spectacular. [01:24:25] So that's one of the more notable businessy books. [01:24:28] And I generally listen to those either while I'm, you know, out for a run or in between [01:24:32] things, chopping vegetables in the car, you know, too tired late in the day to then. [01:24:37] And physical, you know, meatspace books. [01:24:43] I read Kindle, black with white text dimmed way down at night, fantasy sci-fi. [01:24:51] And then I feed my brain through Audible with business books. [01:24:55] And then my weekend, I go through a bunch of newsletters. [01:24:59] I read Clint Giebler's TLDR sec. [01:25:03] Daniel Meisler has an amazing newsletter on supervised learning. [01:25:07] Marco's cloud list. [01:25:09] Iconic. [01:25:10] The investors put out a good weekend report as does the New York Times. [01:25:15] So that's kind of, I snooze all those things during the week when they come through. [01:25:18] And then I just plow through them on Sunday with a glass of wine. [01:25:23] Wow. [01:25:23] So many good tips there. [01:25:26] So many good tips there. [01:25:27] I know I added a couple of those books to my Audible list. [01:25:32] And there was a question or a comment in the chat. [01:25:34] Actually, a question in the chat. [01:25:38] Are you accepting new members for that sci-fi book club? [01:25:43] 100%. [01:25:43] Yes. [01:25:45] Yes, yes. [01:25:46] Yeah, we tried doing it on Facebook a long time ago and kind of formalizing it. [01:25:50] For obvious reasons, we're not doing that anymore. [01:25:53] So if you've got a space, actually, just hit me up on Twitter and let's figure out or send me a message to David Open Raven. [01:25:59] I'd love to restart kind of a safe space where we could or I could swap book recos and reviews with people. [01:26:07] And I'll offer up. [01:26:09] I have a, I update it about every three, four months. [01:26:11] I have a big list of books with all my geeky sci-fi and fantasy stuff. [01:26:16] I will throw that into the kitty to start out. [01:26:21] Awesome. [01:26:23] Moderators, any other questions for Dave? [01:26:25] Ooh, silent this evening. [01:26:36] No, I realize we're missing, we're missing, well, Katie had to drop. [01:26:40] We're missing Lisa Beth. [01:26:41] We're missing Octavia. [01:26:42] We're missing a few of our moderators. [01:26:45] Hussain, you and Mike, go ahead, Hussain. [01:26:47] Yeah, I was going to say, I've been thinking about a few things to ask Dave, but contemplating not asking those because it might be a little bit crossing the line. [01:26:59] But I'll just ask this. [01:27:03] Aside from, you know, reading the books and stuff, do you do any physical extracurricular activities to blow off steam to keep your sanity in check? [01:27:12] If I didn't, I'd lose my mind. [01:27:15] Yeah. [01:27:16] No, if I didn't do that, I'd lose my mind. [01:27:17] And if I don't do it early in the morning, it doesn't happen. [01:27:20] So I do four days of resistance training a day. [01:27:25] Those are usually an hour and a half sessions with a trainer. [01:27:27] Or I do four times a week. [01:27:29] I'll do resistance training with my trainer or by myself if I'm traveling. [01:27:34] I'll do two days of cardio for a total of six days a week. [01:27:38] Saturday is my rest day. [01:27:39] So I go out on Friday and make some really bad dietary decisions on Friday night and pretty much continue that through Saturday. [01:27:45] And I start to pay my penance on Sunday where I get back into cardio land. [01:27:50] And sometimes that's with a friend here on the beach in L.A. [01:27:53] So that my old knees, which have been through five knee surgeries now, you know, I don't withdraw from them any more than I already have. [01:28:02] With on top of that, you know, I'll do a lot of walks. [01:28:05] I do a ton of walks. [01:28:07] I just much like y'all, I'm sure you just get you hit that time with Zoom where you just can't video conference anymore. [01:28:14] That's when I pick up the phone and call people and walk. [01:28:17] Like I've been pacing this whole time we've been talking just because it helps my blood flow. [01:28:21] It helps keep me. [01:28:23] It helps helps keep me focused. [01:28:26] Sense the moving around. [01:28:27] It just keeps me away from screens. [01:28:29] So I generally on a day will hit somewhere between 12,000 and 15,000 steps, if not more. [01:28:36] And that's a key part of, you know, me paying it in so I can have a good dinner. [01:28:41] But, yeah, that physical activity, I just I just think it's foundational. [01:28:45] I have to have it. [01:28:47] I was going to say, no, I was going to say, you didn't see you didn't see Dave and I. [01:28:55] We were at the gym in Vegas last week. [01:28:57] You didn't see us working out. [01:28:59] Is that what you were doing standing while Dave was working and you were admiring his workout? [01:29:04] Oh, man. [01:29:06] The only tweet I did last week was I took a picture of the gym at 7 to 15 in the morning on Wednesday morning. [01:29:14] And there wasn't a soul to be seen. [01:29:16] The day before, man, you would have fought to get on that cable machine. [01:29:21] Wednesday morning, crickets. [01:29:24] They were all nursing their hangovers. [01:29:27] They were all networking, Hussain. [01:29:30] There was late night networking that was happening. [01:29:33] And that's what was going on. [01:29:35] Yeah, I did. [01:29:37] Sorry, Hussain. [01:29:39] I didn't mean to step on you. [01:29:41] I do see Ryan up on stage. [01:29:43] We do. [01:29:44] I will remind everybody, we do have about five minutes left in the show this evening. [01:29:49] I want to be respectful of Dave Coles' time. [01:29:52] He is the CEO at a very prominent startup. [01:29:56] I guess it's still a startup, right, Dave? [01:29:58] Are you considering a startup? [01:30:01] Yeah, but at this time of day, I'm a dad. [01:30:03] The startup job ends as soon as this call gets off and dad role begins. [01:30:09] So, yeah, that one's fading in for the day. [01:30:11] But, yeah, we still consider ourselves a startup. [01:30:14] Got it. [01:30:15] So we've got a few minutes left. [01:30:18] Ryan, we'll pass it over to you. [01:30:21] And then we'll wrap and conclude for the evening. [01:30:24] Go ahead, Ryan. [01:30:26] Well, this is perfect segue, Dave. [01:30:27] I was going to ask. [01:30:28] I always find it really interesting just when people who are on the show have kids. [01:30:33] I'm always curious to know, like, you know, are you trying to, you know, especially with you having your own company, you know, is your hope that your kids will take over your company, that they'll go into data security and cybersecurity and computer science or so? [01:30:45] Or do you just not? [01:30:47] And if so, like, how have you maybe introduced them? [01:30:50] You know, I know at least one person who's in the audience. [01:30:52] I'm pretty sure he has his two-year-old daughter about to be hacking everybody before she's 10, maybe by the time she's five. [01:30:59] Just curious, you know, what I always like to hear, you know, how people are kind of passing that on or if they are like, no, I don't want my children into this, you know, this crazy world we live in. [01:31:09] Just curiosity. [01:31:12] Oh, yeah. [01:31:13] What a great question. [01:31:14] I honestly, I expose him to what it's like in a way that's appropriate to a 10-year-old to run a company. [01:31:25] And a lot of it comes down to, you know, he competes with tennis. [01:31:30] He did his black belt for Taekwondo. [01:31:33] And he got incredibly nervous. [01:31:34] And with all those things, you know, the conversation is always, you know, look, buddy, like some of this is going to go well and some of it isn't. [01:31:41] Like you're there to compete. [01:31:42] And I love the Teddy Roosevelt man in the arena speech. [01:31:45] And I've read it to him before. [01:31:46] I said, this is it. [01:31:48] You know, go in, compete, test yourself, stretch yourself, become whatever you're going to become. [01:31:55] The job that he's probably going to have, you know, 12, 15 years from now, it's kind of trite to say it. [01:32:02] But it probably doesn't exist right now or it exists in a very different form. [01:32:07] And, gosh, anybody who's had a kid, you know, I think you realize at some point that they're very much their own person. [01:32:14] And that book I mentioned before, Don't Trust Your Gut, he runs this. [01:32:21] He kind of takes you through the scenario and he says, what percentage of this do you think is nature versus nurture? [01:32:26] And all the scenarios. [01:32:27] And he comes to this proposal. [01:32:29] And, of course, look, this is a really interesting big data take on answering the question of nature versus nurture, which is horribly complex. [01:32:37] So, of course, you know, there's going to be alternate takes and so forth. [01:32:40] But he looks at it and says, honestly, if we look at the data that we have today, these imperfect studies, but nonetheless interesting, it's really mostly nature. [01:32:49] So, parents, chill out, do your best, you know, surround them with great other people. [01:32:56] It takes a village to raise a kid. [01:32:58] It's what the data tells us. [01:33:00] And at the end of the day, they're going to become what they're supposed to be. [01:33:03] So, for me, what I push him to do more than anything is test himself. [01:33:08] And I try and encourage him to make a safe place where he can test himself. [01:33:12] And the best thing that I can do is show him that I'm testing myself. [01:33:16] You know, that's the trick. [01:33:19] There's this great story I heard the other day about a pirate and his parrot. [01:33:24] And the pirate became distraught because his parrot developed a cough. [01:33:29] And his parrot went everywhere with him. [01:33:31] And part of the reason he was distraught is he loved his pipe. [01:33:34] He was always smoking on his pipe. [01:33:36] So, he brings the parrot into the veterinarian. [01:33:39] And the veterinarian, you know, examines the bird and goes back to him and says, I've got good news for you. [01:33:44] He's like, the parrot is perfectly fine. [01:33:47] He doesn't have any emphysema or anything like that. [01:33:50] He said, the parrot's just copying you. [01:33:53] And I think that's sort of the lesson of life is with your kids is they're going to copy you. [01:33:59] You can tell them or want anything for what you want. [01:34:02] But at their base, there's far more nature than there is nurture. [01:34:06] You know, I believe that to be true. [01:34:07] And if you want them to do something, you better be willing to do it yourself. [01:34:12] And the best thing you can do is to do it yourself and then point it out to them and give them an example and then repeat, you know, throughout the rest of your life. [01:34:20] And I think that's, I think, you know, to me, that's the best thing to do. [01:34:26] That was awesome. [01:34:27] Thank you. [01:34:28] Appreciate that. [01:34:29] Thanks, Ryan. [01:34:31] Dave, that was awesome. [01:34:31] But you got to work on your bad dad jokes. [01:34:34] That was a good one. [01:34:34] You got to work on some bad ones, man. [01:34:37] You're making me look bad here with your good dad jokes there. [01:34:40] So, with that analogy. [01:34:42] But no, look, it's been awesome. [01:34:45] It's been a pleasure to have you participate with us. [01:34:48] Thank you for sharing your time and your energy and your knowledge with us and our audience. [01:34:55] I do have one final question, which is the typical last question that I usually like to ask our guests. [01:35:01] And that is, if you had any piece of advice for the younger Dave Cole, what would it be and why? [01:35:08] I tell him to be a lot nicer to himself. [01:35:18] I think as a younger person, I was very critical of both other people and myself. [01:35:25] And the more that I've gone through life, the more that I've seen that, you know, if you want to be your best self for other people, you have to start by really just being kind to yourself. [01:35:39] And, you know, that's the place in which, you know, you can find the kindness that you can give to other people and so forth. [01:35:46] So, that's a hell of a hippy-dippy Los Angeles thing to say to you. [01:35:49] I realize this. [01:35:51] But, you know, I think for myself, I was a high-performing, very critical person. [01:35:56] And I don't think, I think some of that energy was really good. [01:36:00] But the judgment and the criticism I brought to myself first and then to other people, I don't think it did me any favors. [01:36:07] And part of, you know, aging is taking off those hard edges and learning that, you know, just a self-kindness and then translating that into kindness and giving other people the benefit of the doubt and giving them that kindness. [01:36:20] And not worrying about everything being perfect or right and so forth, but being present for that moment, being your best self there. [01:36:27] That was a really tough lesson to learn along the way. [01:36:31] I wish I would have learned it earlier. [01:36:35] That's great. [01:36:36] That's great advice, my friend. [01:36:38] That is great advice. [01:36:39] Look, I've known you for 20-something years and that is, and it's been a pleasure to see you throughout your career succeed from different opportunity and now to have your own sort of company. [01:36:52] So I wish you nothing but success. [01:36:54] Look forward to catching up with you soon. [01:36:57] Moderators, any final words for Dave before we kind of wrap up? [01:37:01] Just a few. [01:37:02] Dave, thank you for coming on and enlightening us with your thought, your experience. [01:37:07] Always glad to have people like you on Fireside Chat. [01:37:13] Thank you. [01:37:15] Thanks for having me. [01:37:17] I was trying to say 100%. [01:37:18] Taking us down memory lane, give us some insights into how that's informed, what you're up to now. [01:37:24] It's just been just amazing. [01:37:25] So I really appreciate it. [01:37:28] Yeah, Dave, thanks for covering up the time. [01:37:30] I appreciate the, you know, the flashbacks to the good old days. [01:37:34] Thanks again. [01:37:37] And Ryan, thanks for balancing out the stage. [01:37:41] There was too many males on the stage this evening, and we do like to have it be balanced. [01:37:45] So thanks for the women in the audience who did pop up on stage and asked that question and added to the conversation, as well as everybody in the audience who participated this evening. [01:37:56] Dave, I'll leave the final words for you, my friend. [01:37:59] Thanks so much for having me. [01:38:02] This has been truly different than anything I've ever done from a, you know, from a public speaking perspective and so forth. [01:38:10] This is awesome. [01:38:10] So just thanks so much for having me on and for asking great questions and going in so many different directions. [01:38:16] It's been a blast. [01:38:18] Much appreciated. [01:38:19] Dave, the pleasure is all mine. [01:38:26] Thank you again. [01:38:27] I told you when we chatted about this a few weeks ago that it would be a good time, and I'm sure you would, I was sure you would have, you would enjoy it. [01:38:35] So I'm glad you did. [01:38:37] Thank you, everybody, for joining us. [01:38:39] Just a very, very quick reminder in case you have not looked forward to see who's on the agenda for next week. [01:38:47] I do encourage you to come back next week, Wednesday, August 24th at 8 p.m. Eastern time. [01:38:53] We have Steph joining us next week. [01:38:56] Steph joining us next week. [01:38:58] So please tune back next week. [01:39:00] And if you missed the beginning of today's session, the replay should be available in probably five minutes after I close the room. [01:39:08] So thank you, everybody. [01:39:09] Have a good rest of your week and enjoy the rest of the nice summer weather that we have. [01:39:16] If you're actually, well, California, you have it all the time, but in New York, at least. [01:39:19] I'm talking about New York. [01:39:21] Enjoy, everybody. [01:39:22] Cheers. [01:39:22] Bye. [01:39:30] Bye.