Fireside Chat w/Maggie Amato, Sr. Director & BISO @ Salesforce

Hello and welcome to our fireside chat. This is the replay and you got here right on time. So thanks for joining and thanks for being a member of our community. We hope you enjoy the rest of the show. I believe we are live. We made it. Okay. We made it. We managed to cut across to the, is it, can we say the metaverse? I don't think we're in the metaverse, but wherever we are in audio land, we'll let folks fall in. We'll let folks fall in. And then we'll sort of quickly get started. We've got a, we've got a good set of audience members joining us, Maggie, just for you. So thank you again. Thank you again for taking the time. I doubt it's just for me, but I appreciate the confidence. It's absolutely just for you. So while we, while we get started, I'm just going to go through us some quick logistics and housekeeping items, Maggie. So while we get started, so thank you all for joining us. This is our weekly fireside chat. And we're joined this evening by Maggie Amato, who is the BISO, senior director and BISO at Salesforce. So we'll get into Maggie's sort of background in a little bit, but you all know the drill. I do see a lot of familiar faces in the audience. So you all know, and for those who are new, we do this every single Wednesday at around 8 p.m. Eastern time. And we'll go for about an hour and a half or so. We will ask our guests, in this case, Maggie, we'll ask her questions for about 30 to 45 minutes, and then we'll stop or pause and open it up for the audience to raise your hand and join us on stage and ask Maggie a question. We do ask that you keep in mind, you know, our opinions, for the most part, our opinions and comments made today are our own and do not represent our current or prior employer, at least for a good majority of us. So please keep that in mind. If you do end up attempting to quote us or want to quote us, feel free to contact us and let us know, ask us beforehand before you do quote us in any sort of public location or the likes. Let's have fun. Again, this is the middle of the week. It's a Wednesday. I am in, I was going to say sunny Arizona, but it's actually dark here right now. We just finished some, some good meetings as we get ready for the big game in a, in a month and change. And I know everybody spread across the state. So Maggie, we'll leave you for last. I'm just going to go around the room and introduce ourselves. So I'm Tomas Maldonado. I'm the CISO at the NFL. Russell, over to you. Thanks Tomas. And great to be here as always. If you don't have it on your calendar every Wednesday, 8 p.m. Eastern time, you're missing out and I hate that for you. So do that so you don't miss out in the future. It's amazing to be a part here. Russell Eubanks, Security Ever After, the company I started three years ago. I teach with SANS, work with IONS, do lots of cool things. But the coolest thing I get to do is hand it over to Katie, who is an amazing partner with us in Fireside Chat. Thank you, Russell. Hi everybody. I'm Katie Hanahan. I have been in the cybersecurity space about, it's getting closer to 20 years and I hate saying that it'll be 19 years in April. I think I'm going to keep rounding down to 19 until it is 20. But bed in the space, very passionate about the space. Really appreciate the time that we spend every single Wednesday to learn more about our peers in the industry and really excited for this conversation tonight with Maggie. And we're looking forward to the conversation. We'll be here for 90 minutes like we are every single Wednesday. Over to you and Neil. Thanks, Katie. Good evening all. Neil Varghese, Senior Operating Advisor for Francisco Partners. All opinions are expressed are mine and mine alone. Looking forward to the great conversation in front of us with Maggie. Back to you, Tomas. Thank you, moderators. And thank you for everybody for joining in and listening in. So Maggie, you know, one, it's, again, it's great to have you here with us. And thank you for again for agreeing to do this. I promise this will be very painless and a lot of fun. And if it's not, then you, my name is Russell Eubanks. But that said, Maggie, why don't you, why don't you take a moment and you could take as long as you like or as short as you like, but preferably a little bit longer in your, and give us an introduction about who you are. And while you're going through that introduction, why don't you tell us about you and your origin story? Yeah. Okay. So I am Maggie and I work at Salesforce. I'm the VSO for our internal business partner, our cloud called Business Technology. And that's basically our IT organization. And so I am dotted line to the CIO, who is Juan Perez, and he is just amazing, a really, really amazing thought leader. And then I report into Vikram Rao's organization, who is the chief trust officer, our title for a CISO, and he is another amazing leader. And so a lot of, a lot of great leaders at Salesforce. I think people probably know that we have William McMillan, the former CISO, the CIA. I mean, just a lot of really amazing people to learn from, um, and then help partner and drive success with. So that is where I'm at. And what I currently do, um, my origin story. So excuse me, I am a follower of Sarah Hall. So I did happen to listen to her podcast and I like how she started with, um, her superhero story. So I have to ask, has anybody ever told you that they were formed out of clay by their mother and they grew up with a bunch of Amazonian women and they focused on being a warrior? Ever been part of the origin story on your podcast here, Thomas? I don't think I've ever had anybody say that, uh, on our, on our weekly fireside chat. So if that is not part of your origin story, please tell us more. Oh, yes. No, I'm just, I love wonder woman and I thought it would be a good icebreaker. And after I heard Sarah say, you know, has anybody ever been bit by a radioactive spider? I, I went with the superhero theme. Um, but no, I actually normally tell people that I I've been hatched at MITRE. So I was hatched at the MITRE Corporation. Um, but prior to actually joining the workforce, the workforce, I did not go to school for, um, computer science or, um, cybersecurity. Um, I think that, that has maybe been like a new major that was just announced, like the year that I was graduating. During that intern, I had some, some colleagues, I guess, who were telling me that I had a mind for the technology space. And so I ended up landing an internship with MITRE at the same time. And, and man, am I glad I went the MITRE route and not the law route. Well, that's what I say now, but, um, I was bored out of my mind, writing wills and powers of attorney. And, and it wasn't like, I don't know, the shows, right? Like law and order and like being in court and standing in for, in front of a jury and like being passionate about things. It was a lot more paperwork and policy. And, um, I was able to, to do that in the technology route anyway. So quite a big shift for me. Um, I ended up loving what MITRE was doing for DOD. And so I joined on with MITRE. And so I joined on with them full time and I moved with them from the Midwest out to Norfolk Naval Base. And I worked on naval warfare, cyber naval warfare, and some of the projects there, um, post, post that opportunity. There was another opportunity to go up to DC with MITRE and work at MITRE McLean. Um, and basically because MITRE is a nonprofit, they are not lobbyists. So all we can do when it comes to Congress and is really inform and educate. And so I had an opportunity to go to basically become a legislative assistant for the MITRE corporation to specifically talk to senators and congressmen and their staff about what MITRE is doing as far as cybersecurity within their districts. And it was a great, great mentor at MITRE. Um, she was like, this is, this is probably as far as I can get to you here, but I think that, you know, you really have a mind for this and you should keep going. So look for opportunities. So I, I started looking for opportunities within the DC area. Um, I ended up joining the secretary of defense's office. So this was under the Obama administration and secretary Gates was the secretary of defense. I worked for the OSD, which is office of secretary of defenses, legislative affairs, LA organization. And I wrote basically bipartisan policy when it came to cybersecurity for the DOD. Um, and so I got a lot of background in policy. Obviously I had the politics and being able to talk to, you know, any, anybody on any side of the aisle about what we were doing. Um, and so it felt like a really good fit. Um, after that, I decided I wanted to do more technical work instead of more policy. Um, and so I flipped over to Booz Allen, excuse me, Booz Allen Hamilton. I ended up working for, um, the identity and access management team. We had a contract. Our client was the VA and I was able to work on the team that implemented electronic healthcare records for veterans affairs. Um, and that is probably the first time that. Um, I realized the mission of what I was doing greatly affected my passion for the work. Um, so like my grandfather was a vet and we lived in Illinois, but the veterans affairs office was in, in Missouri. And so it was always challenging for him to see local doctors in Illinois and then have them transferred to his vet doctor. And so it was, it became very apparent to me when I was working on that specific project that the mission space that I'm working in impacts how passionate I am about what I'm doing. Um, so that was a good note for me to realize. Um, after Booz Allen, similar to Sarah, I, I flipped over and I started the, like, I started working at a federal agency called health and human services. Um, I spent about four and a half years at health and human services. I was asked to come over a bunch of the Booz Allen Hamilton folks were asked to come, um, because they were growing their headquarters. falls under HHS, but it was mainly an oversight functionality that reported the compliance up to the White House from those separate individual optives. And they were expanding, they had a 24 by seven sock, and they had created this team called security design and innovation. And they basically had come to the realization that every single operational division was funded, like appropriated directly from Congress. So HHS headquarters didn't have a lot of carrots to give because they didn't deal out the funding. They had their own independent networks, they didn't talk to each other, right? So that was found out pretty quickly. And it was like, how do we get this giant, like, I think it is still the largest federal civilian agency is HHS. Like, how do we get all of these folks talking to each other? Because what's bad for CDC is not going to be good for NIH or Medicare or Medicaid, right? So how do we share information? And that's, I feel like whenever we started understanding, as a culture, cybersecurity practitioners didn't trust inherently. And so figuring out that if I can build trust with people, then they will share information with each other. And that was way less of a technical challenge. It was like a social experiment, basically. But I did lead with technology. So I was able to do really amazing things, I feel like, because we were the innovation arm, like we were working with the Andreessen Horowitz, doing bake offs between like, we called them malware virtualization content containerization, basically, probably of an in Benicia from back in the day. But like, how do we how do we find the right solution for such a disparate environment? And we looked at different network solutions, and we did bake offs between different, you know, firewalls, we brought in Palo Alto, we brought in a data lake, and that was a sim and a shared sim. And that was Splunk and shared GRC solution, and really just trying to make it so that there were common tool sets, even though the networks were completely siloed. And then training and education and like bringing teams together to talk about, hey, I'm seeing this, or hey, I learned how to do this in Splunk, or hey, let's, you know, let's do another boss of the sock, because I'm pretty sure I could win this time, like, making it fun for the actual practitioners, but then architecting it in a way that gave senior leadership, as well as practitioners, the proper information to make risk based decisions. And then after we had implemented all of that infrastructure, I mean, FireEye, you name the X, EX, HX, NX, had all of them. But like bringing in different solutions that would, that wasn't yesterday's, yesterday's technology for tomorrow, which I kind of felt like was the joke in federal government, like, how do we think for the future? And how do we make sure that we're not solving for a problem six months from now? But like, we're actually thinking like six years from now. Anyway, so it was, it was a really great, great time, like the optives really became close, I feel like we built trust and credibility. And that's when we started seeing that we had all of this information about, you know, proprietary information, medical devices, hospitals, right payers providers, because of the Medicare Medicaid. So we had this like, influx of information from just alerts. And it was like, how do we share this information with people in the private sector, who could really use it? And how do we share it with DHS? Like, how do we make this information sharing thing work? And not just for each other, like in this, in the sector? Like, how do we, how do we make it so that like, everyone benefits from what we're doing? And that's whenever we became really engaged with the ISACs. And we met like Jim Routh, and we met Terry Rice, we met a lot of folks that were on the board of the ISACs that were on the board of the ISAC at the time, and just had this really awesome passion to help the underserved, it seemed. And that's where it seemed like government could really step in and say, hey, like, we can help with MITRE ATT&CK framework, like we can make, we can house stuff and make it public. And it was, it was a really good opportunity for us to be able to information share. And then, right around this time is when WannaCry happened. So, so it was the first time, I think, in the history of HHS, at least, that there had never been a physical response to a cyber emergency. So we had basically spun up the Secretary's Operations Center. We were working with ASPR, which is the Assistant Secretary for Preparedness and Response. We, I mean, we were working with Secret Service and FBI, like we had been working with fusion centers to start like, basically standing up a program that can be like the official front of the agency, so that we can field questions from the sector. Like, what do I need to do in order to help with IT hygiene in a hospital network, right? Like, and we can point them to documents, or we can point them to the ISACs or the ISOWs. And then just working on with different state and local kicks, like New Jersey has the New Jersey kick, right? And it's like they work with Secret Service and DHS and everybody. But in, you know, and we would run tabletop exercises. So like, if the hospital goes down, there's a state of emergency, and they're diverting patients, like, how quickly can we get the hospital back up? And what's the next hospital in the town over that can take it? And how many patients can they take? And, you know, really running through like, can you turn a gymnasium into a hospital? And, and working with different real risk factors and scenarios and being realistic, but at the same time, like knowing the threat landscape in the health sector, and knowing that it's, it needs to mature, like just the security and risk management in the healthcare sector is still light years behind like the finance sector, for example, or the energy sector. And so having the ISACs was a really great way to help the underserved. That is how I think of it, like people who have to build the insurance companies for a bandaid, so they're not going to be able to build the insurance companies for, you know, like, security control to be put in place. And so thinking about it from that perspective, and like, how can the government help? And how can the government help in ways? Like in WannaCry, where we had joint lines open with DHS, and the ISAC, and we had over 3000 people on the call, like lines open walking them through, this is what you need to do in order to identify, remediate, etc. And like, none of that had ever happened before. And it was, it was so great that I mean, people had actually called their congressional representative, and we were called to Congress to testify about how great the program was. And like, Congress and Senator, congressmen and senators wanted to come like, do a tour of this, you know, program floor. And I'm like, this program floor doesn't exist. Like, I gotta make that happen out of nowhere. And anyway, in doing all of this, I uncovered some things that I felt like, were just not settling well with me when it came to our interactions with private sector. And especially in the healthcare sector, it was like, we were, it's not it seemed like big corporations were expecting handouts or expecting a quid pro quo or something with the government. And I ended up blowing the whistle on a private sector entity during this time. And that was wild, to say the least. I had never had my reputation like so tarnished, I don't think in my entire life. But it turned out like this company, I guess directly was competing against the program that we were creating that could give this information and help the public sector or the private sector, excuse me, for free. And it was supposed to be a part of their business plan. And then they were like meeting with my secretary. And I don't know, Senator McCaskill talked about it on the Senate floor. And I think suddenly called me by name. And I'm like, why does she care? It was just like this bananas situation. And it was like, I was, I was doing everything improper, imaginable. And really, like they, you know, everyone said I was under investigation. But really, other people under investigation. And it was, it was like, I don't know how to describe it. It was one of the hardest points in my career in my life. I mean, it affected me physically, I was losing my hair, I developed ulcers. And I was like, why did I have to be honest about this. And then there was a whole element of like, just gross sexual harassment that was part of the whistleblowing and EEO complaints. And it was, I mean, it's something to be a female in technology, it's something to be a female in security technology, it's something to be a female in government, like talk about good old boys club. I did a whole interview with Jill from SC Magazine and Cyber Risk Alliance on that. So I don't want to, I don't need to go into it in depth here. But I hadn't really spoke about any of the whistleblowing and why I did it and the effects on me. And I don't know, five years since, yeah, since it happened. So it was nice to be able to actually like talk about it again, and not be afraid to use my voice publicly. Just because I feel like the last time I did, and I spoke my truth, it was, it was just a really bad thing publicly. But I mean, that's part of my story. And I feel like there are so many women and minorities who go through that, what I went through, and so much worse that I feel like people need to talk about it. I know that it's not often talked about, and it makes people uncomfortable. But I feel like the more that we can talk about it, the more people understand like this behavior is not okay, and they're not alone. So that is my tout for that. Anyway, I, after that, I know I'm kind of, I feel like I'm talking to myself since you guys are on mute. But after that, I actually went over to Aetna. And so I left federal government, I was like, this is ridiculous and not worth any, like, this is not worth it. I mean, just getting, I mean, getting death threats. And it was, it was, I'm telling you, it was wild. It was absolutely wild. And we moved, my family moved, we moved from DC, we were in the Annapolis area to the Austin, Texas area. And that was another wild journey for us. And during this time, I was at Aetna. And I had an amazing time in healthcare, I feel like leaving the public sector and going into the private sector was a game changer. And just mentality wise being like I said, hatched at the MITRE Corporation, and then just doing more federal government work throughout my career up until that point. Staying in the healthcare vertical, I think make it made it a lot easier for me to transition from public to private sector. And I was able to build out their cloud security program. I got to work underneath Jim and his leadership. And that was amazing. I feel like I got to do a lot of things there, helped with their third party risk team and building that out. Just understanding how a well run and efficient cybersecurity organization should look. Like I saw it there for sure. And then leaving there, I went to Dell because that's local to Austin. And I really wanted to go into the office and have an office job. I had just think I had, we had just had, our son had just turned one. And yeah. And then that was in January 2020, our son turned one. And then I had just started with Dell and then the pandemic started. So I was back home working from home again, or Dell. And that was, that was an interesting change for me too, just because going from healthcare where it's highly regulated, and then to technology sector where everything just feels much more laid back was a little bit challenging as well. And then now I'm at Salesforce. I actually love it here. I feel like Tomas has makes fun of me because I drank the Kool-Aid, but you can, it's definitely a culture like Salesforce is a culture. And their number one value really is trust and that's how they lead with absolutely everything. And it is, it feels like a welcome home. And I truly appreciate my business partners. I mean, I think I probably have the best business partners anybody could have. We have a, we have a solid team. We're really great partners. Everybody likes to, you know, lead with a trust first mindset and everybody understands that Salesforce, that it's everybody's, everybody is a risk manager. And it's, it's just an amazing company. So I will leave it there. That is my origin story. Form from clay to drink the Salesforce Kool-Aid. How about that, Tomas? Wow. That, that is, that is, that is, that is, man, I'm, I'm speechless, Maggie. Thank you for, for sharing, you know, everything you have so far. I'm just going to pass it over to, who do I see here? I'll pass it over to Russell to you. Anything you want to continue the conversation, ask Maggie. Yeah, absolutely. Maggie, what a rich, I've got a whole page of notes of the things you've been through, the experiences, one that led to another. And I got to say, you know, for the, the stress and threats and moving that you, that you went through, I'm, I'm, I'm just heart sick to hear that. And glad you're on the other side of that. And I feel more comfortable talking about it. And I can only imagine, okay, I cannot imagine what that is like. Your work at Health and Human Services reminds me of some, I did 13 years at an insurance company, did a lot of work in that space. It's like, Oh, I remember the regulation, like you, you mentioned earlier, I love the statement you said at Salesforce, everyone is a risk manager. I think that's quotable. We all need shirts and tattoos that say that we need to be like that. But my question is back when you talked about MITRE, no, at Health and Human Services, you talked about you were on a security design and innovation team. Oftentimes in security, we're like known for saying no, like, no, you can't do that. No, you can't hook that to the internet. No, you can't do those things. Can you talk about either at HHS or in security of ways that we as security leaders, security professionals can be more innovative? Yes. Well, thank you for your kind words. It was, it was a difficult time. And I feel like I, I'm still like, can't, it's one of those things where it's like that, that really all happened to me. But anyway, it was, it was wild. That's all I have to say. Yes. So I, every leader that I have had in the security field has been, had basically had the motto, security is here to enable the business. So security would not exist if there wasn't a business. And so in basically like Jim and Sarah and even Kevin Charest, right? Like it was, yes. And here is how we can do that. Like, yes, we can do these things, but it's going to look like this. And I think the biggest thing for security is to lead, right? Like help drive the business. If you can help drive the business, have a seat at the table, whenever they're going to market with something, whenever they are thinking about a new VDI solution, like whatever it is, but being at the table with the business and understanding where they are going has made all the difference in the world. And that is what every CISO and thought leader that I have worked for has preached basically. And then not just said the words, but then lived by those words. Like they made partners and they assured people that they weren't there to be a stop sign. They were there to be a partner to enable them to deliver a more secure product. I love that so much. I really appreciate that insight and encouragement for me. And I'm sure for all of us to do just that, to be a better business partner. Katie, over to you. Well, thank you. And yeah, let me just do a quick, a quick reset. Thank you again, Maggie, for joining us this evening. We're here every single Wednesday night at 8 p.m. Eastern time. This is a different type of conversation. We're here every single week, spending time with each other as human beings and really trying to understand what we can learn from each other to become better partners in this industry. A lot of that is our origin story. And thank you so much, Maggie, for sharing so much with us already this evening before we've even done our very deeply journalistic questions. You're like, you're sitting here with some of the best journalists in the cybersecurity field. I don't know if you know this, but this is, we're tough. It's a tough group. But in all seriousness, you know, I just want to make sure we're resetting this and we've moved from a different platform. I think, Maggie, when you listened to us originally, you mentioned Sarah, you know, we were on Clubhouse at that time. And what makes this community so unique is that we did come out of this kind of pandemic, pandemic, went on Clubhouse, wanted to share with each other what we're doing and how we're, you know, how we're making it through a pandemic while also being cybersecurity professionals. And we found each other and we created this community. And when I say we, I mean, I joined, you know, a good eight months after it was already established with Tomas and Russell and Anil and others. Um, but, um, just want to thank you again for joining us and want to make sure that those of you who have found us on LinkedIn audio, just want to thank you for joining us. This is where we'll be, uh, every single Wednesday now moving forward. Um, please follow all of the moderators on stage and you'll be able to, um, be alerted to when, um, you know, the next, uh, session will be in who our guests will be. So, uh, with that, just want to do that quick reset, but Maggie, thank you so much for joining us. Um, a lot here, you know, you, from my perspective, I did not realize we had so much in common in terms of people, um, and experience. So you, I think, I think you mentioned Scott air force base, Southern Illinois. Yeah. I did. Yes. I'm from Illinois myself. And, um, I spent the first eight years of my career and working in support of the DOD. Mostly those first eight years was the, uh, army. Um, and then also some somewhat with, uh, AMC at, um, Scott air force base. So absolutely appreciate, um, what that is, what's that, what that is like to, in terms of the foundation of, um, a career in this business. Um, you said a couple of things though, that I just, I need to ask, um, and I identify with so much. So you talk about mission, passion for the work, um, mentors that you've had, uh, leading, you know, what that looks like getting a seat at the table, but also finding your voice. I think that I would love to lean into first is when you found your voice, what does that mean to you? What, what did that feel like for you? Um, and you know, we're in a risk-based industry. What, what gave you the gumption to be able to go ahead and lend your voice to what is a very controversial topic in this industry. And by the way, I feel like I can ask this question because I also am a woman in this industry with a very similar background. What gave you the confidence to be able to find your voice and be able to speak up about some of the injustices that have happened in your career? Oh, that's a good question. Um, so I feel like I thought it was acceptable behavior my whole entire career to be asked for drinks and appropriately touched just, I mean, like a small of my back or, you know, whatever, just too low for my comfort, um, and definitely unwanted. I don't know, just a, you know, inappropriate joke, the subject of inappropriate jokes. Like, I thought it was all pretty, like, just at it, like, just as normal, like, this is what I signed up for. And I'm just gonna like, it could be worse is what I thought. Um, and it really wasn't until I was at HHS. And it started happening to a subordinate of mine. And I then realized that in me not saying anything, I was allowing this behavior to happen to a more junior staff. And I could say something and stop this behavior from happening immediately. And so for me, it was a no brainer. Um, cause I'm like a doer. And I normally challenge things anyway. Um, but like this, this was a no brainer for me. And so I was able to just talk about myself, and what was happening with me, and not even have to mention her. And then this person was removed from the office. Um, and it was it became a huge, big, it was handled, it was so poorly handled, it was probably made it much worse. Um, but that was what was the eye opener for me, um, was seeing it happening to a junior female staff, that I could easily have prevented this from happening or getting this far. Um, and so I knew at that moment in time that I needed to speak up. Because if somebody saw that happening to me, I would have wanted, I would have wanted them to speak up to. Um, and so it's just part of being a cycle breaker. I feel like I can use that term and work. Um, but yeah, I wasn't going like, and I had a really great male boss, uh, Leo Scanlon, who was just fantastic. And, you know, I think if you were to hear his story, he also thought things were just status quo, and I was fine, and I was tough, and I would joke it off and laugh it off and be okay with it until it happened to somebody that I just, it was so blatant that I was like, this is inappropriate if I don't say something. And so I said something to Leo, and he was like, that's it. We need to take this all the way up to our CIO. Um, because it's happening to multiple, it's like multiple things. Like there's multiple instances of this. Um, and then it was just really handed, handled poorly. Like the whole government can get away with a lot of mismanagement of things. I've learned that really, really quickly. They're like, well, it's just an asshole. You can't really do anything about it. And I was like, I don't think it's just an asshole. I think it's more than that. Um, but that was, that was what triggered it for me. That was a catalyst. Well, and I, I appreciate that. And I appreciate your candor and speaking out that way. And you said a lot of things earlier as well about leading and, um, you know, getting a seat at the table to make decisions within an organization. And now you're at a global organization, Salesforce. I love Salesforce. Uh, I've been a user of Salesforce and a fair amount of my career. And so here you are now, um, you know, as we reset and then we move on and I'm sure Neil has some questions and, and, and those of you in the audience, please raise your hand. If you'd like to ask a question of Maggie as well. Um, but just really curious then how you took this very, I would say dramatic experience, which I would say also a lot of women or people in our industry who are, um, underrepresented have also, um, experienced now that you've taken that and you found strength in it and you're in a leadership position and you have a seat at the table. Can you tell us a little bit more about the ways that you're, uh, incorporating that, uh, what you've learned, um, and, and, and, uh, bringing that to Salesforce or whatever organization that you're going to work with in the future and from a leadership perspective, from a team building perspective. Yeah, I think, um, one of the things even coming on to Salesforce that I did is culture check. So, um, I feel like culture starts at the, at the top, like it's very much a top down, um, feeling, I don't know. Um, but it's how organizations are run and it's like the lifeblood of the team is the culture. And I had talked to several folks before I joined Salesforce and I was very clear about, um, my expectations of, of being a female in the workplace in a technology company, a global technology company with my hiring manager. Um, and I think just setting that tone, like I, I am a woman and I have two small children and I am going to work like I need to get my job done and I am going to mother like I need to mother. Um, and so I, I feel like setting that tone is huge. Um, I feel like that's been a big thing for me in career is setting boundaries, whatever that may look like, and then helping other women set those boundaries. And what I've realized is the more that I can set boundaries, whether it be a work-life balance, not being spoken to a certain way. Um, and even when it comes to not being spoken to a certain way, I don't have to be dramatic about it, which is something that I feel like women get labeled a lot is whenever somebody says something inappropriate, um, to them, they have a, you know, we have a response and then the response is categorized as dramatic. Whoa, whoa, whoa. Um, excuse me here. There was like a prompt that started all of this, but just saying things like, oh, wow, I'm surprised you feel comfortable saying that. Um, and moving on, you know what I mean? Like showing women how to combat the micro repressions, calling people out on things in a, you know, kind and empathetic way and private, um, stopping any kind of negative talk that I am a part of. I mean, there's, there's a lot of different ways that comes out. Um, now that I am in a senior leader role within a global company, um, having learned and been, I feel like subjected to some very wild treatment, um, over the years, um, like there are, there are things that I just will not tolerate. And I think setting those boundaries and having that tone of like, yeah, I'm here. This is my work family, but I have a real family. Um, and I will not be, you know, spoken to in a demeaning way or that tone I felt was inappropriate. Um, talking to people, right? Like if somebody has done something that is offensive, sometimes I like, I, well, not sometimes I normally go with the benefit of the doubt. Like they're not being malicious. They just don't know. Um, and so I'll have a conversation with them about it and be like, Hey, this was, this, this felt uncomfortable. I'm just letting you know, because I don't want you to do this to some other person and they take it their own way. Um, like implementing those kinds of behaviors on my end, I think has helped with relationships and help gain clarity. Um, as far as trusted relationships go as well, long-winded, sorry. No, it was not long-winded at all and much appreciated. Um, and so thank you, Maggie, uh, for your candor and for answering that question. And I absolutely identify with that. Um, but with that, I'm going to, um, uh, Neil is ready with his next question. So over to you and Neil. Thanks Katie. Uh, Maggie, thanks for taking the time, uh, your business schedule. Uh, you've had a great career, been through the gauntlet public and private sector. Want to get your thoughts, insights on, you know, uh, you know, organizationally, but also as a career path, uh, security professionals deal with a lot of stress, burnout. What tactics or tips can you share that helped you deal with the stress levels that come, come with the turf, uh, come with the role, come with those responsibilities and how has that impacted how you mentor, uh, and lead folks. Oh boy. I feel like from 2020 on, it's been like a self-discovery journey. How, how do I stay sane with tiny humans working from home and like all this extra stress of like, are we going to survive humanity? Um, yeah, no, I hear you. So my personal journey has actually, um, maybe looked a little bit different. I have recently moved across the country again. So we moved from Texas to Montana. That's not something that everybody can do or has the luxury of doing, but I decided that I needed to be in a place where I can be doing something active in all four seasons. Um, I, we, I think my husband and I really started focusing on our mental health and what, what does pre-burnout look like for both of us? When do we need a break? When do we, what does a break look like? Um, meet like, just keep in mind, we have a three-year-old and a one-year-old, so we often need breaks, um, from everything. Um, and so it, it, it really looked a lot like getting to know myself and knowing that in order for me to feel like I have accomplished something during the day that looks like me, you know, going for a walk, cleaning the house, like, like having some sort of energy exerted, um, those things have been really helpful and knowing that I have vacation to take and I need to take vacation. Um, hiring a coach, um, honestly, an executive coach has really helped put things in perspective as far as like, how do I balance my calendar? How do I know what things are triggering for me and what's acceptable behavior and what's not? Um, and so when I feel really angry about something, you know, I can just go smash a glass plate in a box somewhere and then come back and like the kid's dress is gone. But I mean, I know it sounds radical, but like these things have really helped me figure out how to cope in the world of 2022, um, know myself better, like know that I need to be outside, know that I need to move my body, know that I need to take breaks, know that I need to be able to communicate and have extrovert time with friends that are not work, plan things, even if it's like, hey, we're going to go on a family hike or we're going to go cut down a Christmas tree, like doing things that, um, I can plan in advance and look forward to. Um, those are things that I know about myself that I can do that kind of trick me to be like, okay, well, I just have like, you know, five more days to get through. I can cut down a Christmas tree. Um, but I also really feel like getting to know yourself and having that awareness of, Hey, I'm, I know that I am going to reach burnout if I go through this week and next week. So I'm going to go ahead and pre-plan this. Um, I encourage all of my staff to know, like their human design, their astrology charts, their Enneagram numbers, um, their Myers-Briggs. I mean, really like know all of your makeup and know what you need to do in order for you to be your most fulfilled self. And everybody only has a hundred percent capacity at work. And that is something that I feel as a leader, people have to protect their teams. And, and even now going through like annual planning and whatever, it's like, what can we say no to, um, you know, positive focus? What can we say no to? How do we stay on, you know, the path that we're on and not deviate? And, and it's, it's really great. It's, I think it, I think once people understand themselves better, they know what they have to do. Like some people need a journal. Some people need to go CrossFit. Like some people need to do different things in order to feel better and not reach burnout. And then just having a leader that blocks and tackles for them. No pun intended here. But, um, but just making sure that the team is protected from unnecessary work and politics and whatnot and distractions. Wow. That's awesome. Maggie, thanks for sharing that. I mean, I think you had some great points there. I think the key piece you touched upon is, you know, knowing what those signs are pre-burn versus, you know, most people see it at the end of the tunnel when both ends of the candle already burnt out and you're, you know, it's kind of pretty late in the game and now you're going to move into a recovery phase. But, uh, you know, like you said, we're on a hundred time, a hundred percent of the time we're on 24 seven, there's no off for us. Right. So I think that's key, but also knowing that dynamic of yourself, uh, and building that in, but also, you know, as you can hear, you know, from you having that empathetic, that point of view and perspective for your, your collective team, uh, even more so as advantageous to ensure they understand that dynamic. So thanks for sharing that. Yeah. And I think it's important whenever you go on PT, you're on PTO and when my team's on PTO, like they're not to be bothered, there should be coverage. If there isn't coverage, you got to work that out in advance because that would be a single point of failure somewhere. But I mean, I fully expect them to take the time and to mentally check out and knowing that it can take two or three days to stop thinking about work before you're finally on vacation. Like you don't want to be pinged on day five and like get back mentally into it. I mean, that is why I feel like PTO needs to be used. It really bothers me when if there are people at the end of the year, haven't used any, or they have like five weeks left or three weeks left. I'm like, please take your PTO. Like a mandatory thing. You're right on point. I think, like you said, part of that is it's understanding that dynamic, but in our world, it's unheard of, right? I mean, when we're, when we're away, we're on, we're still logging in, right? So it's finding the time, be able to draw those boundaries, but in the same vein, ensuring that confidence that the team to, you know, cover, uh, cover for you and, uh, you know, pick up the slack, uh, you know, in your absence. So I think it's great to be able to embody that with the team. Uh, back to you, Tomas. Thanks, Anir. I think we have somebody on stage. Rush, anything you want to ask, uh, Maggie? Yes. Um, thanks, Maggie. Um, and thanks for sharing your story. It's, uh, it's amazing. Um, had, um, uh, someone close to me also go through, um, uh, some of what you described, uh, personally. And so I know what it's like, uh, but, um, I wanted to ask you, uh, actually, I wanted to turn a little bit, uh, the, the discussion, a little technical and, um, and I know in your, um, your, your talk earlier, you'd mentioned, uh, you had, um, strategize cloud security and cloud seems to be on a lot of people's minds these days. Um, so when an organization is considering cloud security, uh, what is that, uh, in strategizing, what does that at a high level look like? And, uh, what, what, what, what are some of the things that you should, uh, pay attention to? So when I think about cloud security, I think about like a common control set, whether that be, well, hopefully it's cloud native plus, right. Um, I, when I was at Aetna, it was, it was really like, we have, I don't know, 375 controls, but that's a mouthful. So how can we boil this down to talk about 25 key controls? Um, especially with executives and getting them to understand why we need to have these security controls in place and have a whole control plane. Um, and that, I mean, starting with IAM, which is the most granular, just making sure that we had I proper IAM controls in place. And then, um, DLP, are we trusting, but verifying, um, and we had sent these controls right out to the ISACs. And so the entire community could consume the information if they were working with Amazon, or if they were working with GCP or Azure, like they could say, Hey, I want to turn on these features of your, you know, audit logs and your IAM services, because then it gives me visibility into who's going where. Um, and so like just making it available to the public, but yeah, I mean, it's, it should be a basic set of, you know, I, um, your IT hygiene controls, like your asset management, um, your security logging, or, you know, what kind of data is in there, your data, policy, compliance, classification, verifying the data, tagging. I feel like, um, I feel like everything as a service, like getting a CI CD pipeline for immutable infrastructure is like where folks need to go. Um, I think immutable infrastructure is the way that we should be moving towards. And I think that's what a lot of folks are doing. Um, but right now I feel like it's kind of a, let's just check and make sure we have these controls in place in a lot of places, um, rather than having like, here's a framework, use these, um, controls as the framework to manage the risk that you have within your cloud environment. Yeah, I, I feel like, uh, um, um, sometimes various lines of business make their own decisions, um, in, in, um, in the different cloud choices you have AWS or Azure, uh, GCP. And, uh, uh, uh, it's sometimes difficult to manage, uh, uh, it is. Controlling MSPs is huge. Um, security, I think should absolutely be at the table when it comes to MSPs. Um, but I, I mean, it can, it can get rowdy like the wild, wild west. There has to be a governance, like a cloud governance team, um, whether that's part of your enterprise architecture review board. Um, but there needs to be some sort of governance over the creation of cloud accounts. Um, and I think that's where, that's where things get a little bit more difficult. Um, and you have to be more specific when it comes to your data tagging classification. Right. Very good. Great. Thank you. I'm not sure if anyone wants to follow up on this. That's on the stage. Oh yeah. Thanks Raj. No, great question. And thank you for joining us on the stage. We've had a couple of other people join, um, on the stage again, just a quick reset for the room. We're here every single Wednesday night. Uh, tonight we're interviewing Maggie Amato, uh, BSO for, uh, Salesforce. Um, we've been talking about her origin story and now we're, are digging into some, some questions, anyone in the audience, please feel free to raise your hand. You are welcome on stage. We, we relish your questions. Um, but Nate, a friend of the program, you are here almost every week. You've, you've been with us since our clubhouse days. Uh, so Nate over to you. Yeah. Thanks Katie. And now definitely try to join when, when, where I can, uh, Maggie absolutely appreciate you sharing your insights, perspective, you know, journey through this, career that you've, you've cultivated and absolutely blown away by your moral courage that you've demonstrated throughout your career. And I feel like we probably could have easily doubled this, Katie Tomas into, to a three hour or a dual session on this one. But, um, you know, thanks again for, for sharing your, your perspective thus far. I really wanted to, to kind of scratch under the surface of, uh, about, you know, your, your current role as a, as a BSO, um, business aligned cybersecurity is, is really kind of where the industry is taking us. I think it makes absolute sense that, you know, we can't do security in isolation. We have to have the business context behind it, but I'd love to hear a bit more Maggie from, from you about what that means to you. Um, we talk about, you know, enabling the business, but what does that actually look like? What, what do you look for in, and how do you apply your, your cybersecurity information security program to, to really help foster, you know, the, the initiatives that Salesforce is working on right now? Yeah, that's a great question. Um, I feel like BSOs, there's like different flavors of BSOs, depending on where you're at and the sector you're in. Um, I, I have pretty much operated the same way. Um, that I have seen BSOs work successfully. That is essentially being the glue for the cybersecurity organization into the business and being that senior engineering leader, whether that like my customer is the CIO, I basically have embedded myself into his team. I am considered a direct report of his, um, that's how he treats me. And I get to advise him on the risk that we have at Salesforce for our corporate network and what we need to prioritize based on that risk. Uh, as far as work, uh, you know, head count dollars, et cetera, um, for the year. Right. And then I also make sure that my customer, I guess, base, which would be the population of business technology and the employees within business technology are educated and kept up to date. So I conduct like information security summits, where we go through and we highlight all of the work that we're doing jointly between the infrastructure and the security organization. Um, we go over phishing awareness campaigns, we go over, um, different threat factors and just helping them understand more granular details around being that risk risk owner and risk manager for the company. Um, and then I also bring our executive leaders together. Um, so I bring our CISO and our CIO together on a monthly basis at a minimum. And then I bring our POs together since we're an agile shop. So all of our product owners and then product managers, we have some projects. So bring the portfolio teams together and the scrum teams together and make sure that all of the work is being delivered to plan. Um, and then I also am the quarterback for anytime there's a CISO or, um, a vulnerability that we're chasing down or, uh, I don't know. I plan the tabletop exercises. I make sure that we are running through our controls and we're testing them quarterly, getting dashboards for assets with controls on them. Do we have gaps, right? Like really trying to make sure that my executives on both sides, the security organization and the business organization understand what, what each other are doing, like where they're going, um, and the strategy. And, and I feel like really that means not just me being in every single deep dive. Like I am in every offsite with the business. I'm in every offsite with the CIO and his team. I'm in every weekly direct meeting. I am in, like, I am at the table. Um, and that is the mentality of the organization that I am at. It, it's not like that everywhere. I can tell you from experience, like the security team does not always have a seat at the table and they're not always welcomed with open arms. Um, that is not the case at Salesforce, Salesforce, Salesforce, people listen and participate. And I feel like have a healthy respect in a, in a way that people can push back and ask questions, um, to security instead of security, just saying, Hey, you guys need to do this this way. Um, and so I, I feel like the culture, like I said, is huge having the culture where the CIO and welcomes you and invites you to his weekly team meetings and his, you know, leadership off sites and wants security to be at the table and values security and make sure that he talks about it in every single, all hands is different. It's like a different mentality. It's probably not the norm. I'm actually quite content with the unicorn that we have right now. Um, but it, it's still hard to always get the attention and prioritize all of the work. And that is what I feel like the other aspect of the BSO is, is behind the scenes, making sure that all of the work across the board is prioritized and the work is properly addressing, addressing risk and increasing our maturity. Right. That's, that's what my job essentially is. That's what I do. I build relationships. Like there's not, I feel like it's not an easy, it's like an awkward role. Um, like you're constantly under the bus for something. Like I just jokingly, I jokingly tell people I'm like, I live under the bus. Um, um, because like somebody is always like not happy fully about something. And so I feel like that is inherently part of the role of being the BSO is creating that friction and making sure that security is paying attention. Like, Hey, we're going to do X, Y, and Z in the business next year. This is where we need security resources and making sure that security understands the rationale of why they need resources to align to this business need. Um, and then there's the opposite, right? It's like the business might think they're doing well on asset management and it's like, Oh, well, we just had this whole thing arise. So now we need to make sure that you're doing a little bit better. Um, and so it's, it's a, it's definitely a friction creator role. Um, so you have to be comfortable with like that kind of persistency. Like you have to be persistent no matter how uncomfortable you are, but, um, that is, that's kind of how I go about things. I, in this role, I know that was a lot of rambling. I hope that answers your question. No, it was fantastic. Absolutely. Love it. And thank you for such a full and layer of response to my initial inquiry. Thanks again. Yeah, no problem. Yeah. And thank you, uh, for those who have joined the stage, it looks like we have Dutch and we have Greg, uh, we'll go in order. Um, Dutch over to you next. Thanks, Katie. Maggie, uh, just let me echo everybody's comments earlier. So being that vulnerable with, uh, essentially a bunch of strangers is super brave. So I appreciate you sharing, uh, your, your personal story there. Um, I wanted to pull back a phrase. So you mentioned break the cycle. And so I want to, it's super powerful. So I want to go back to that, but in a slightly different way. And you talked about the time off and it seems really endemic amongst CISOs that they're not taking time off. So I appreciate, you know, encouraging your people. Uh, but like you have kids. So you have, I think you said you have two kids. I have six. So, so people, they, they watch what you do. So how do we get better as a community? Because CISOs need to be able to take 10 days off and it exercises your deputy and your frontline leaders as well, because they need those opportunities, right? That trust to be able to fill in. Even if you could do a better job, they have to be able to believe that they can do it. So how do we get better as a community, frankly, to, to take the time off that everybody needs? I mean, as a community, I feel like that's where I would love to see the CISOs posting their vacation trips, right? Like you guys can post that on LinkedIn. Um, even, even if it's in within your teams, like one of the things that I love about some of the senior leaders that we have in Salesforce is that they truly take time off and then they will come back and say, here's a photo dump and here's my family. And they make it like a, you know, here's the highlight reel of my vacation. Thank you for taking over while we were, you know, able, like, so I was able to enjoy myself with my family. And I feel like the more CISOs and senior leaders even can just say, Hey, I'm going to share personal information with my team. Um, and make it a normal thing. Like, Hey, I have a family. Hey, I want to take them to a baseball game or Hey, I want to take a, you know, two weeks off and I don't know, go to Bali and be treated like a queen, like whatever it is that you want to do. Like there should be an opportunity for any human to take time off and recharge. And I feel like historically there has been this expectation that a CISO never sleeps. And I would jokingly tell, um, my past CISO, I was like, if you don't sleep, then your CISO means your career is soon over. Like you're just going to fall over. Um, that was my acronym for CISO. Um, anyway, and so he was like, you know what, you're right. And so he actually took a leave to Portugal and like came back and talked to the team about it. And that inspired the team to take leave. But I think it's, it comes back to culture. Do, does your team feel empowered to pick up the slack while you're gone? Because if they feel empowered to, to take over knowing that even if they do mess up, you're going to have their backs and you're going to correct it with them, then it shouldn't be an issue to take time off. But I do feel like the CISOs are like a regal community of like, sorry Tomas, but like, I don't know what they're like, I'm expecting moths to like fly out of their closets or coat jackets. Sometimes I'm just like, can we let loose? Can we, can we be human beings who all need to have, um, you know, joy in our lives? And that doesn't look like working, you know, 120 hours a week and not sleeping and being a robot. Um, but my perspective is joy. What do you think? Joy. I know. Joy. What is that? Maggie's like joy. Can we sleep? What is this? What is this mystic voodoo you're talking about? That is non-existent. I don't believe I've heard of that before. Is that, wait, is that the Kool-Aid that there, that there's, that's the Kool-Aid. It's the Kool-Aid. Yeah. Let me, let me stop. Let me stop. No, it's, um, I just, I think that the more people, people in leadership can show that they are having a life outside of work, uh, and normalize that kind of behavior and talk about it like the better. Should that make it hidden? That's my hidden Instagram and hidden sort of, uh, tick tock video. You gotta, you gotta share some stuff with your team. You're gonna be like, Hey, this is what I did over break. How was your break? Share some photos. Like, make it, make it like, Oh, wow. This, he's like, he's for real. Cause there's pictures. I'm going to share my, uh, everybody's sharing the, uh, the AI avatars. I'm going to share AI avatars of myself. How's that? Perfect. Yeah. Put them on LinkedIn. I'm playing Maggie. Look, I don't think I'll, I don't know if I'll put it on LinkedIn, but, uh, um, I'm playing Maggie. I agree with you. There is a human side to, to, to who we are. And I agree that does, that does, you know, we tend to not over, I don't want to say overshare. We tend to not share at all. Um, some of us at least, uh, but some of us do in private. I will say that I do share with my team in private, uh, different things, but, um, um, good, good set of comments and good question. Uh, I'll pass it back to, uh, uh, Katie. I'm not sure who's next. I'll pass it back to me. Yeah. I think we have, uh, Greg and then, uh, Sonah next. Uh, so Greg, over to you. Greg Deglafetti. Did you have a question? Uh, no, sorry, Katie. I'm good. I joined late. I am just enjoying the, uh, the interaction right now. I'm, I'm afraid if I'll ask a question at this point, it might be something that was covered earlier in the conversation, but I'm enjoying the, the, uh, exchange at the moment, but I appreciate the call to shout out. Oh, of course. Yeah. Thanks. Thanks for joining us. Uh, yeah, again, we're here every Wednesday. Uh, Sonah over to you. Hi. Um, thank you for saying my name so well. I was like, who coached her? Oh, I did. I said it right. Oh, thank God. Yeah, you did. You did. I just want to let you know that feedback. Um, I love the conversation. Um, I joined by virtue of, I think becoming, uh, connected with Tomas. So thank you to Tomas for setting this up. Um, and I just, I mean, it was so great. I'll just give some quick feedback before I ask my question, if that's okay with you, Katie and forum, um, having been at Microsoft, you know, in data and AI and, and that done that great, uh, sort of practice lead stuff, but also been involved in, um, you know, diversity, equity, inclusion work in big tech, which is, has its own specific flavor of, um, you know, desiring authenticity and bringing authentic self, but then also meeting the bottom line and, and what that means for infinite growth and profit. Right. So I think it's, it's interesting having this, seeing this forum, because on one hand, um, you know, how do secret professions come together? How are CISOs talking about it? These are talking about it, but then also you talked about your whistleblower experience, which I found really, um, beautiful to come together like that. Right. And it's not often that you can have both in the same forum without people getting weird about it. Right. So, uh, thank you for that. I had a quick question and I wanted to really make it specific because so many great topics were already discussed, which was around trust. Right. So, um, you know, with you, having been through the journey you did, and I've been through my own flavors, like, uh, something that Katie had also mentioned, um, you know, it, it takes a fair bit of healing and transformation work internally. Um, but kind of like within yourself, within your family, within all the spaces that you impact, right. To then come out and be able to, um, lead with trust again. And I think it's easier in business spaces where it's about the possibility and the vision, but in security, there's so much talk of zero trust. So how do you then find that balance, um, and avoid the contradiction in the coming at it with trust first and full trust, but then having to maintain a zero trust exposure perspective? And I think this is very valid for life in general, because on one hand you want, you know, you trust, but you do it with awareness, right. And full sort of cognizance of, of what's going on around you. Thank you. Thank you. So is your question, how does zero trust work within this company or just as a concept? Because trust is for you, how do you between looking at it from zero trust, right. But then also maintaining your life perspective as, as, as full trust, trusting what's possible for you, you know? Yeah. I mean, I think for zero trust as a concept, it's really changing the way that we operate as security practitioners, but not just as security practitioners, but as individual employees at any company, because you have to understand that instead of having the standard access that you would normally have, you're coming in with no trust and having to earn it. And I feel like meant like the mentality of that is good from a risk management perspective, but I do feel like it is more challenging to overcome from an interpersonal communication perspective. And so I always lead with transparency. I feel like you probably have all gotten that from my speaking on this podcast apart. And so I'm a firm believer in Brene Brown's dare to lead, right? Like if there is not clarity, if we're lacking clarity, it is unkind. And so I want to make sure that I am transparent and providing clarity so that others know that I'm coming from a space of authenticity and kindness. And I feel like that has gotten me this far in my career. I feel like if I were to be secretive and not trust anyone, that as a female, I would be even more misunderstood by the opposite sex and probably not have made it to a senior leader role within a global technology company. I do feel like because Salesforce values trust and embodies trust that, you know, like the concept of zero trust and a trust first organization was a little bit radical. But again, it's the culture and it's having them having folks understand the risk behind what we're trying to manage. And I feel like whenever you build trust and you're transparent and you can explain the rationale and have people reason with you, it makes sense. And so I believe that it's just another jargon. And as long as people understand that it's just another way of managing risk and we can still lead with transparency and trust in interpersonal relationships, I think people understand. Awesome. Thank you. My husband's at Salesforce. So I'm just gonna, I'm gonna mention you to him. Um, because so many, yeah, so many Microsoft people have gone to Salesforce and you know, the culture shifts, right? Culture shifts through every wave of people, but thank you so much. That was, that was excellent. Yeah. Have them slack me. I will. I will. Anything else? I think we're all just speechless. No, I'm just, uh, I, I know somebody was in the audience. I I'm trying, I was trying to bring them up. I'm sorry. I was distracted. Uh, Matthew Dimmick had his hand raised and I don't know if he made it to the stage or if he ended up leaving. Um, so it looks like he, and also wanted to make sure, um, that we got to everybody on the stage if there were any final questions. Um, but then we also have, uh, usually a wonderful closing question from our, our lead moderator Tomas, but just wanted to make sure that we opened up the, uh, to the stage for any final questions. Oh, Matthew, you did, you made it, you made it. Okay. So Matthew Dimmick, please, uh, over to you for that, uh, for your question. Thank you. I did make it Katie. Thank you, Maggie. It's very nice to meet you. And this has been a great event so far. My question is, is I think a little bit different. It's a little bit outside of cyber security. Maybe. Um, I think you can kind of tell a lot about a person by what they choose to do for a living. And so I'm wondering if computers weren't a thing or if cyber security wasn't really a thing, what would you choose to do as your profession? Um, if they weren't a thing, that means something else is probably a thing. And now you've opened Pandora's box. Um, I would help solve problems. I would help solve problems no matter what I was doing. Even if I wasn't in cyber security, I thoroughly enjoy solving complex problems while having fun Tomas. So, you know, like happy hours and things like jokes and being wonder woman. No, I'm kidding. Um, but no, I would be solving some sort of complex problem. That's what I like to do. It's a very good answer. Thank you very much. Yeah. Well, I can say thank you to all of you guys for having me. I thoroughly appreciate being invited on here and I hope that I met expectations. Um, I know I really enjoyed it. It was average at best. It was, I'm sure. It was average at best, Maggie. No, no, I'm playing. It was, it was awesome. Um, thank you for taking the time out of your day to spend with us. Uh, I do know that you're very busy, uh, and, and our audience, thank you for sort of participating as usual. I do want to get to, uh, we do, I, I typically ask one last question and I do want to ask that question, but before I get to that, I want to just ask the rest of the moderators, any, any questions for Maggie before we sort of, uh, bring it to closure today. Or any comments, sorry, any questions or comments, uh, for Maggie before we sort of get to the last question. You know, I do, I do have a comment and I just want to say thank you again, Maggie, for your candor and, um, just for speaking so freely about, um, you know, some things that might be a little bit more complicated, um, and making those of us who also, uh, think about these types of things to feel like we have a voice and a place in a, in a platform. So appreciate you and your bravery there. So thank you again. And I'll jump in and say the same. I had a friend of mine actually say to me tonight, Russell, you go to this every week. Why don't you just skip? You could just skip it. And I'm so grateful I did not. I would have missed out on what you shared. It made a big impact on me. And, uh, and frankly, uh, shared your story with my family over text a while ago. So thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Oh, thank you guys. I appreciate that. It means a lot. It's not, it's like I said before, it's not easy to share all the time. So I appreciate the audience receiving the information well. Thank you. So Maggie, I want to ask you this question. Brace yourself, because I know you haven't been prepped on this question. Um, and I don't think we, I don't believe we covered it, but if we did, you know, let's, if we did, let's sort of take it in a different direction. But if there was one piece of advice for the younger Maggie, and I know you've, you've, you've gone through a lot and you've dealt with a lot, but if there was one piece of advice just to leave our audience with, and really for the younger you, what would it be? Oh, younger Maggie. Piece of advice to younger Maggie would be continue to do your best. And your best looks like what you can do, right? Like it doesn't look like what somebody next to you can do and your best will be rewarded. And even if you don't feel like it's rewarded at the time, knowing that you tried your absolute best is what's like meaningful to you. And, and future Maggie is super proud of you and everything that you've accomplished. And I feel like if everybody could look back at their younger self and let their younger self know that their best is enough and that future them is proud of them, maybe we'd all smile a little more. All right. That's a, that's, that's a great way to sort of, I'll call it end the, end the evening. Maggie, again, thank you for, for, for everything that you do. Thank you for all that you shared. Thank you for everything that you will continue to do, not only for yourself and your career, but also others who are sort of looking at you, uh, and that's in that sort of leadership and mentorship role. Um, and just keep, you know, keep being strong and keep being yourself and keep sort of living your truth. And, you know, you have a whole community of people, myself included, that are here to sort of, step up and help you whenever you need help. And don't feel, don't hesitate to call upon me orders to, uh, to step in and help you if you do need help, but you're as strong as any other person that I've seen. Um, so I'm sure you're, you're going to continue to do well. So thank you Montana, Moni, Montana, Maggie. Uh, thank you. You know, not everybody can go, you said cross country, but is it really cross country? If you're going from Texas to Montana, is that really cross country? It is. It's from one border to the other. I'm way closer to Canada. I mean, if you, if that is true, but if you would have said, you know what, I went from, I went from Maryland, DC to Montana, that's cross country, but that's true. It's just the other way. It is cross country. But Maggie, it's been a pleasure. Thank you, Tomas. Yes. Thank you for, thank you for your words as well. And I appreciate the trust that we've built and I am looking forward to listening to more of these podcasts in the future. So thank you again for having me. Thank you. And thank you everybody for, uh, for tuning in, uh, just really, really quick. If you are, as I mentioned, we do this every single Wednesday, if you are coming back next week, which we do hope you do, uh, um, we ask that you tune in again next week, Wednesday at 8 PM Eastern time, uh, because we do have a great guest joining us next week. And that is, that is who is joining us. We have stars stars. Oh man, I'm going to butcher the last name. So I'm not going to say it right now, but we will be back next week, December 14th, 8 PM Eastern time. Join us. We have stars joining us for a conversation. Uh, so we'll see you all next week. Have a a great rest of your week, everybody. Good night. Thanks. You too.