Fireside Chat w/Dave Glenn, Chief Revenue Officer @ Cyturus

[00:00:00] Hello, hello. [00:00:30] Hey, Katie. [00:00:31] Hey. [00:00:33] Hey. [00:00:34] How are you? [00:00:35] You can hear me, yeah? [00:00:37] I can hear you loud and clear, Katie. [00:00:40] Wonderful. [00:00:41] Great. [00:00:43] How's it going? [00:00:44] Oh, good. [00:00:45] Good. [00:00:46] Week is flying by. [00:00:48] It is. [00:00:48] As we always seem to do. [00:00:51] It sure is. [00:00:52] I think it had a little bit to do with Monday being a holiday in the U.S. [00:00:57] Fair enough. [00:00:58] That's true. [00:00:59] That is a U.S. holiday. [00:01:01] A very important one. [00:01:03] Absolutely. [00:01:05] Absolutely it is. [00:01:08] I'm just trying to set up the room real quick. [00:01:11] Of course. [00:01:13] Hi, Russell. [00:01:14] How was your day? [00:01:16] Katie. [00:01:17] Tomas, it was fabulous. [00:01:19] How about yours? [00:01:20] That's great. [00:01:21] We were saying the week was going by very quickly. [00:01:25] But it is, you know, a shorter week. [00:01:27] So that's one of the reasons why. [00:01:29] I know. [00:01:29] We need to have some more holidays or maybe design our schedule to just do four days a week. [00:01:34] I feel like I'm a better person this way. [00:01:35] Yeah, there are so many companies that are doing it. [00:01:39] Actually, one of our guests, AJ Yon, I followed him after he was a guest on our program. [00:01:45] And he does a four-day week, I believe, at his company. [00:01:48] Yeah, we did that. [00:01:50] When I was at the Fed, we let people kind of flex that way if they wanted to. [00:01:54] Oh, you did? [00:01:54] A few people did. [00:01:55] Oh, nice. [00:01:56] It was back in, gosh, forever ago. [00:01:58] But let them choose to kind of get in their time however they wanted to do it. [00:02:02] And looking back, I wish I'd have done that a long time ago. [00:02:07] Yeah, I think to your point, too, I mean, any work schedule is, you know, some people prefer a five-day week. [00:02:13] But, you know, even my son at college was able to arrange his schedule that he didn't have any classes on Friday. [00:02:19] And it helped him be able to have a more flexible work schedule and have the occasional long weekend. [00:02:25] I mean, so it is nice that both work and educational environments seem to be a lot more flexible. [00:02:35] As I say, I do a four-day week in the office. [00:02:42] What do you do? [00:02:42] So, but that is not the same thing. [00:02:49] Hey, Dave. [00:02:50] Not at all. [00:02:51] Yeah, we'll have to ask Dave what his opinions are on four-day work weeks. [00:02:54] Hi, Dave. [00:02:55] Welcome. [00:02:56] Oh, wow. [00:02:56] Just hitting me right on you, Dave. [00:02:58] Good afternoon. [00:02:59] Hey, Tomas. [00:02:59] Hey, Katie. [00:03:00] Hey, Russell. [00:03:01] Good to hear all his voices this evening. [00:03:03] You, too. [00:03:05] How are you? [00:03:06] Doing all right. [00:03:08] I'm for four-day work weeks. [00:03:10] Yeah, look, I, for, you know, if you look at, like, the, what is it, FDNY, so the fire department, [00:03:22] they do, I think, three-day weeks. [00:03:25] But they, it's not a three, it's not a three. [00:03:27] Yeah, I think it's three-day weeks. [00:03:28] But they're doing, like, 12 to something hour shifts in a day. [00:03:34] So, a little bit longer day, I guess, for them. [00:03:37] But still three days. [00:03:39] Yeah, a friend of mine is a firefighter, just retired as a fire chief for one of the cities [00:03:46] in Michigan. [00:03:47] And he, I always, I always envied him on his days off. [00:03:53] And I always thought that he worked really hard on his, on his days, on his days when [00:03:56] he was working. [00:03:56] So, that is, that's one of those things that, that, you know, you, you, that's one of those [00:04:04] things that you, you, you really, you really, it's hard to get your head around. [00:04:10] It's hard, it's hard to get your head around envying, envying them for the, for the days [00:04:14] off. [00:04:15] And, and, and they work really hard. [00:04:17] So, I don't know. [00:04:17] I don't know. [00:04:18] They, he was, he, let's see, he would be on 24 hours and then off 24 hours. [00:04:22] Then on, on 24 hours off two days and then on 24 hours and then off four days. [00:04:29] But it's, it's, you know, again, the days that he was on, there'd be days when he, he [00:04:33] was on calls, you know, 20 hours of a 24 hour day. [00:04:39] So, I don't, I don't know. [00:04:41] I, you, you, you gotta, you gotta trade for those things. [00:04:43] But I think people that work three, you know, three twelves or, or, or, you know, I, I, [00:04:48] four, four day weekends sound even better than four day work weeks to me. [00:04:51] Yeah. [00:04:53] Probably, probably. [00:04:55] That's probably a good conversation too. [00:04:57] Um, whoever's doing that, cause I'd be interested to hear their, their thoughts. [00:05:02] But look, why don't we, uh, why don't we get into the, uh, into the thick of things? [00:05:07] I know I opened the room slightly late, so I apologize about that. [00:05:11] But, uh, you know, it is, it's an interesting day this, this evening. [00:05:15] So it is Wednesday and it is our usual fireside chat. [00:05:18] So thank you all for joining us. [00:05:20] Uh, we are, we have the privilege to chat with, uh, David Glenn or Dave, I guess you, you prefer [00:05:26] Dave or David? [00:05:29] Uh, either one is fine, but, uh, most people call me Dave. [00:05:33] All right. [00:05:33] Sounds good. [00:05:34] So Dave Glenn is joining us this evening. [00:05:36] Uh, so we'll get into learning a little bit more about Dave. [00:05:39] Um, so I just want to do some quick ground rules. [00:05:42] Um, just before we start, uh, as I mentioned, this is our weekly fireside chat. [00:05:47] Uh, if you're new to our fireside chat, there's a little greenhouse on the top left of your [00:05:50] screen where it says fireside chat. [00:05:52] You can click that and join our club. [00:05:54] Uh, you, you'll be able to see our schedule and see who's coming up and be able to listen to the [00:05:59] replays. [00:05:59] Uh, there's no payment or anything like that. [00:06:02] It's just a matter of joining the club and seeing what's going on. [00:06:05] So join our community. [00:06:06] We're happy to have you. [00:06:07] Uh, we are going to have a good evening, a good time this evening. [00:06:10] I should say, uh, it is the middle of the week. [00:06:12] Uh, I was a bit thrown off Katie because Monday was a holiday. [00:06:17] So Wednesday did creep up on me, but it is the middle of the week. [00:06:21] So this is usually the time that we kind of kick back, like to have a great conversation, [00:06:26] uh, take some of the stress off of the, the, the work week and use this as an opportunity [00:06:31] to really just network and listen to, uh, to other thought leaders in the space, uh, share [00:06:36] their journey and their, and their stories. [00:06:37] Uh, so we ask that if you do pop up on stage to ask a question, please keep that in mind. [00:06:42] Uh, this is not the opportunity to do a sales pitch on your product or solution or anything [00:06:46] of that sort. [00:06:48] This isn't more of an opportunity to really, uh, learn about another person's journey and [00:06:52] their experiences so that you could continue to grow as a person within whatever, uh, aspect [00:06:58] of your life that you happen to be in, uh, whether you're starting out more senior or somewhere [00:07:03] in between. [00:07:04] Um, the last, actually one of the comment I'll make is for the majority of us, our comments [00:07:10] and opinions expressed today are our own and do not represent our current or prior employer. [00:07:15] So we ask that you please keep that in mind. [00:07:16] Yes, we know that this is being recorded and we will definitely not say anything that, that [00:07:22] compromises that, but we ask that you please keep that in mind that we are not here to [00:07:25] represent our, our current or prior employers. [00:07:27] These are really just our opinions or thoughts in our comments. [00:07:30] Um, I think I got all the, uh, all the, all the guardrail ground rules, if you will. [00:07:37] Uh, Russell, what do you think? [00:07:38] Did I get them all? [00:07:39] Did I miss one? [00:07:41] A plus, even on a short week. [00:07:43] Oh, look at that. [00:07:44] Octavia, a quick microphone check for you. [00:07:47] Check one, two, one, two. [00:07:51] Awesome. [00:07:51] Sounds good. [00:07:52] All right. [00:07:53] So we'll go around the room. [00:07:54] Uh, Dave, we'll leave you for last. [00:07:56] So I'll start off. [00:07:57] I'm Tomas Maldonado. [00:07:58] I'm the CISO at the NFL. [00:07:59] Katie, over to you. [00:08:01] Hi, I'm Katie Hanahan. [00:08:02] I'm the vice president of cybersecurity strategy at IT Savvy. [00:08:05] Also run their VC. [00:08:07] So program and full disclosure, Dave Glenn is one of my favorite people in the entire world. [00:08:13] And one of my favorite collaborators on, on clubhouse as well. [00:08:16] Over to you, Russell. [00:08:17] Super interesting, super excited to have Dave here with us as evening. [00:08:21] Hey, Russell Eubanks, former CISO for the Federal Reserve Bank of Atlanta last couple of years, [00:08:25] been running my company, Security Ever After, where I help people get their first CISO job. [00:08:30] Anil, over to you. [00:08:32] Thanks, Russell. [00:08:33] Anil Varghese, virtual CISO and co-author of The CISO Mentor. [00:08:38] On to you, Lisa. [00:08:40] Hey, hey, hey, it's Wednesday. [00:08:43] My name is Beth Lintini-Walker. [00:08:45] I'm the founder of the Lumen Worldwide Endeavors, which is a compliance ethics and corporate governance consulting firm. [00:08:53] I'm an author. [00:08:55] I teach law school in the US and Europe. [00:08:57] And I'm excited to be here tonight with Dave. [00:09:00] On to you, Octavia. [00:09:03] Thanks, Lisa. [00:09:04] I'm Octavia Howell. [00:09:05] I'm the CISO of Earth and Facts Canada. [00:09:07] I am located in Toronto. [00:09:09] And I'm super excited for this conversation. [00:09:11] I can meet you, Dave. [00:09:13] Back over to you, Tomas, to kick it off today. [00:09:17] Sounds good. [00:09:17] Thank you, moderators. [00:09:19] And it's always a pleasure to join you guys on a weekly basis. [00:09:23] So I'm looking forward to this conversation. [00:09:25] Dave, you know, why don't you take a minute to introduce yourself? [00:09:29] And what I'll ask you while you're doing your introduction, [00:09:33] why don't you tell us a little bit about you and your origin story? [00:09:37] How did you, you know, what motivated you? [00:09:39] Where did you sort of grow up? [00:09:41] What are some of the things that inspire you and drove you to where you are today? [00:09:46] So just let us know a little bit more about you as a person, Dave. [00:09:50] Sure thing. [00:09:50] Well, first of all, Tomas, thanks a ton for inviting me to join you this evening. [00:09:55] I feel very privileged to be on the stage with these folks and some of the people in the audience, too, [00:10:01] that are some of my favorite people. [00:10:03] And again, as Katie mentioned, one of my favorite collaborators as well. [00:10:07] And known Katie for quite some time. [00:10:10] Russell as well. [00:10:11] I spend a lot of time with in multiple rooms on this platform. [00:10:15] And the first thing that I'll say is that this platform, I think, is a really interesting, [00:10:20] it's an interesting social experiment. [00:10:21] I'm really enjoying it partially because of the strength of the community that I see building here. [00:10:27] There are people in this room right now that I've been exploring business opportunities with [00:10:33] and looking at cool new technologies with and just the speed at which my network has grown [00:10:40] as a result of the conversations that I've had here, just in ways that aren't particularly even [00:10:45] things that are developing business even, but just strength of connection, strength of bonds, [00:10:54] and strength of networks. [00:10:56] I'm really, really fortunate and blessed to be a part of this platform. [00:10:59] So thank you again for having me. [00:11:00] And thank you for giving me this opportunity to share and hopefully learn a little bit about you [00:11:05] folks as well. [00:11:06] I've listened to a few of these and I learned something every time I listen to a replay or [00:11:11] join in one of these rooms. [00:11:12] So again, thanks for the opportunity. [00:11:15] So I was, I grew up in the Western part of the US. [00:11:19] I was born in Denver. [00:11:20] I lived in Washington state until I was in middle school, spent a few years in my middle school [00:11:27] and high school years in New Mexico. [00:11:29] And then I've lived in Michigan for the last, let's see, 32 years now. [00:11:34] I fell into cybersecurity. [00:11:38] I fell into technology really. [00:11:41] Back in 1987, we, the small private school that I went to, someone donated a lab full of computers [00:11:52] to the school. [00:11:52] And the teacher that they, that they had, um, teaching, uh, intro to PCs, I was, I was his [00:12:00] reader and he didn't have a lot of PC experience. [00:12:03] And so, um, I helped him register his syllabus and then help him teach the class. [00:12:08] Uh, the next year I was the school librarian and I, I digitized our card catalog system and, [00:12:15] and, but it was always a hobby for me. [00:12:16] My dad, my dad had gotten an apple two plus or an apple two, I guess at the time, um, in, [00:12:22] my dad's a minister and he got an apple two, um, in his church office, uh, I guess in probably [00:12:29] what it would have been 84, maybe. [00:12:32] Um, let's see counting backwards. [00:12:36] Yeah, probably 84, 83, 84. [00:12:39] And, um, and I, you know, I learned some, I learned some basic programming and, and, uh, [00:12:44] got to play some, some knockoff. [00:12:46] I remember the first, the first video game I played was, was a tax man, which was a knockoff [00:12:50] on Pac-Man on his apple two, um, apple two computer. [00:12:54] And then, um, and then also Castle Wolfenstein way, way back when. [00:12:59] Um, and you know, that was, that was kind of my introduction to, to, to PCs. [00:13:05] I never really thought that I would be involved in, in, uh, in technology. [00:13:11] Um, it just wasn't a, yeah, I, I always said I'd never sell anything and I'd never work [00:13:17] in the technology industry. [00:13:18] Um, and the last 20 years of my, um, technology career has been, has been spent in, in business [00:13:29] development and cybersecurity. [00:13:30] So it's really interesting how, how we, you know, we, we, we, we're intentional about what [00:13:36] we do is, uh, for a living and, and, and many people that I've heard tell their stories on [00:13:41] this and other platforms fell into cybersecurity accidentally or providentially. [00:13:46] Um, so I started when I, when I, um, when we moved to Michigan, I went to school in Southwestern [00:13:54] Michigan and Andrews university, and I decided I was going to be an English teacher. [00:13:58] And I majored in English and minor in communications. [00:14:01] And I loved, I loved English. [00:14:02] I loved writing. [00:14:03] I loved, I loved, uh, you know, creative writing stories, poetry. [00:14:07] I liked writing essays. [00:14:08] Um, I didn't like math much. [00:14:10] Um, but I worked in the micro lab my freshman year in college and ended up teaching grad students [00:14:16] how to use word perfect and, and, uh, you know, really kind of got my hands dirty on, [00:14:22] on, you know, early simple peer to peer networks and, and such. [00:14:25] Um, and, um, in the, the summer between my sophomore and junior years in college, I was working for a laser [00:14:34] printer service company. [00:14:36] Um, and the, at the time, the only way you could advertise really was in the yellow pages. [00:14:43] And so we had a, we had an ad in the yellow pages for this laser printer service company under computer [00:14:47] repair, because of course there wasn't a section for laser printer repair. [00:14:52] And, uh, we, we remanufactured toner cartridges and fixed laser printers, but people would call [00:14:58] and they'd say, Hey, you know, I'm, you know, my problem with my PC, um, and, you know, I need [00:15:04] someone to fix it. [00:15:05] And we would, you know, we would, we would say, Hey, you know, we don't do that. [00:15:08] And, you know, refer them to someone else. [00:15:11] And it got to the point where, um, I, I told them the owner of the company, I said, Hey man, [00:15:15] you really need to expand into, into networking and PC repair. [00:15:20] And, uh, at the time I was starting to get active on bulletin board systems and, and, and some of [00:15:25] the other pieces of that. [00:15:26] And he would say, he would say, you know what, there's no future in PCs. [00:15:30] Um, we're going back to a centralized computing model. [00:15:32] There's no, no reason anybody's ever going to have this kind of power. [00:15:36] You know, it's, it's just, you know, technology is not going to go that direction. [00:15:39] You know, we're going to go back to green screens and dumb terminals soon anyway. [00:15:42] And, you know, there's, there's no future. [00:15:45] And so he finally relented and he said, listen, if you want to start coming into work at six [00:15:49] o'clock in the morning, leave me at two o'clock in the afternoon, you can take calls, you know, [00:15:53] you can take any call that comes in and you can, you know, take the business, build yourself a [00:15:57] little consulting business if you want to. [00:15:59] And by the end of the second week that I did that, I was making more money in, you know, [00:16:03] a day or two of, of, of doing, um, consulting for people after hours than I, than I would make [00:16:09] in a week, um, you know, working full time that summer job for this technology company. [00:16:16] And so after a while, it got to the point where I built up a nice little, a nice little, um, [00:16:22] sort of collection of small businesses and, and personal, um, uh, clients. [00:16:29] This is 1992, 93. And it got to the point where I built up a nice little stable of clients and I [00:16:35] was charging 50 to $75 an hour back then, um, to do that work. And that, you know, that kind of grew, [00:16:45] um, in, in, and I, and I did that off and on through the rest of my school, my school experience [00:16:51] in, uh, in Barrington Springs, Michigan. [00:16:54] Oh, when I finished at Andrews, I moved back into the Detroit area and I, I continued [00:16:59] doing my consulting work. And one of the things I, I built a, I built a, um, I built a, I worked for [00:17:07] a headhunter and built, ended up building a, um, uh, a home network for him. Uh, he is a headhunter [00:17:14] that had 25 people working for him, had a falling out with his partner, um, sort of built some automation [00:17:19] for him. He died the day I turned the project over to him. Literally the next day he died. [00:17:24] And it just, it, it really shook me. And so I, I realized that there were, there were gaps in, [00:17:30] in my field of knowledge. So I went to work for NTEX information systems as a, as a, as a field [00:17:35] engineer, um, started out, uh, doing warranty repair for printers, laptops, servers, um, moved into a, into a, [00:17:45] a networking, networking role where I was working with Netware and NT351 and then NT4. Um, [00:17:51] um, Sometime during that period of time, um, the company that I was working for started going through [00:17:57] some changes and I got my MCSC, um, started teaching Microsoft, I became a Microsoft certified [00:18:03] trainer, um, started teaching MCSC and MCDBA classes, uh, at night at a community college. [00:18:08] And then, and then when, when the, the, our company sold to Siemens and Compuware, uh, or CompuCom rather, [00:18:16] uh, product business went to CompuCom services business went to Siemens. And I ended up going with, [00:18:21] with the training, um, organization of that company. Um, so all the way through this, you know, again, [00:18:28] I was never super intentional about being in technology, but it kept being the best, you know, [00:18:33] the best possible opportunity at hand. And when I figured out how much English teachers made, [00:18:38] although I loved, I loved the English language, I loved the idea of teaching at a, you know, [00:18:42] secondary level. Um, I just realized that technology was something that I naturally sort of gravitated [00:18:48] towards. Um, what got me into the business development side of things is I found an opportunity [00:18:54] for a migration for the company that I was working for. And I very excitedly told my manager about it. [00:19:04] And he pulled in the sales guy that was responsible for the, for the account. And, you know, I walked [00:19:09] him through the relationship and introduced him to some people and he got a $50,000 commission check [00:19:14] for what he did. And I got a $50 gift, gift, gift certificates, all of garden. And it frustrated me [00:19:21] so bad that I, you know, I was, I was really kind of down and knock about it. And, um, a guy pulled [00:19:26] me aside, a guy named guy Weaver, who's an engineer for Splunk now. And he said, listen, man, if you want [00:19:32] to be a sales guy, knock yourself out, I can tell you that it's a brutal business, but if you want to [00:19:38] do it, just understand that you're going to, you're going to have to get over the idea that technology is [00:19:43] cool. And I said, what do you mean? And he said, well, technology really doesn't matter in a business, [00:19:47] in a business framework, unless you understand how it impacts business. And that simple little phrase [00:19:53] stuck with me. And every time I think about, you know, what my career has done, I really kind of go [00:20:00] back to that. And I realize in, in, in the technical positions and in the, and in the, um, sales positions [00:20:06] that I've had since then, the, the, my, my true north has always been, um, I'm, I'm never going to try to [00:20:13] convince someone that they, that to, to buy a technology that they don't need. Um, I'm always [00:20:19] going to work to make sure that the people that I engage with are, are ethical and that, and that they [00:20:25] have, you know, that they have a guiding purpose and that, and that when I, when I think about [00:20:30] technology, I need to understand how it impacts business, um, in order for me to, to even recommend [00:20:36] it to somebody. So kind of full circle to now, um, I'm the chief revenue officer for a company called [00:20:41] Saturis. Um, we are a, so, um, so kind of backtracking on that. I helped, I helped build [00:20:47] a really cool company, um, over the, over a span of 18 years, a company called CDI that just got [00:20:54] acquired. Um, so congratulations to the executive team over there and, and, and the folks there, [00:20:59] they just got acquired by a company called Converge. And, um, we built that, we built that company from, [00:21:05] you know, uh, six people and, and a couple million in revenue to, um, you know, to, to, [00:21:12] to where they were when they sold. And, and, and in that period of time, I, I managed, I managed [00:21:17] professional services. I managed, um, I managed our, um, our marketing team. I managed our sales team. [00:21:24] I sold, I was a strategist. Um, I was a CISO advisor and I got the opportunity. The thing that [00:21:33] I love about working for consulting companies, I got the opportunity to understand how different [00:21:39] organizations leverage technology. And it's fascinating to me to, to look at the motivations [00:21:44] for people on why, why people make choices to purchase technology. Um, it always makes me scratch [00:21:51] my head when someone buys a technology and then six months later issue, they issue an RFP for one [00:21:56] of the functions that the technology, that the technology does. And, and in, in this industry, [00:22:01] we spend a lot of time throwing technical solutions at problems when sometimes taking a step back and [00:22:07] understanding what is the impact of what we're doing in our organization, how does that align? And [00:22:13] then, and then the other thing that I think that I think I, I really try to get people to understand is, [00:22:17] um, when, when you, when you, when you approach a problem, it's best to try to understand what the [00:22:24] motivations are of the people that are involved in the, in the problem, what they want out of, out of [00:22:30] whatever happens next and, and, and what, what's a win for them. And if you can create an environment [00:22:35] where, where everybody wins, I mean, you're never going to be able to please all the people all the time, [00:22:40] but the closest you can get to understanding the motivation of people around you and understanding how to [00:22:45] solve for that, for that motivation, understanding how to, how to, how to, how to align that. [00:22:50] Um, you always end up in a better position than, than you, than you do if you're not listening and [00:22:54] not paying attention to that. So follow that full circle around. I actually just took a, took a [00:22:59] promotion. I joined, um, I joined Saturis, um, back in February of last year. And, um, as of May 14th, [00:23:09] um, I'm now chief revenue officer for Saturis and, and, and really that's, that's all of sales and [00:23:17] marketing and pre-sales and, and, and part of, um, uh, client support, client services. And, and what, [00:23:25] what's exciting to me about the technology that I'm working with right now is over the years, I've, [00:23:30] I've been involved in a ton of, um, advisory work. And there's this thing when, when you work for any of [00:23:37] the big four or, um, an advisory services company of any kind or systems integrator, when you do an [00:23:44] advisory service, there's, there's, there's a, a, a paperweight that you, you know, of, of, of stuff [00:23:51] that you turn over to a customer and, you know, it might be a 200 page report and with a business [00:23:58] impact analysis on the front and maybe, uh, uh, uh, an executive opinion letter or, or some sort of [00:24:04] attestation and you drop this paperweight on their desk, you do the executive presentation. [00:24:10] Um, everybody nods and smiles and congratulates each other on a, on a project well done. [00:24:15] And, and usually the top one or two things gets, gets addressed and then the next emergency happens. [00:24:22] And, and often these big strategies that we take on don't last beyond the next, the next emergency. [00:24:30] And what, what makes me excited about what I'm doing now is that we, we literally, uh, the, the [00:24:36] founder of our company literally saw that problem and he's like, you know what, um, I'm tired of doing [00:24:41] that. I'm tired of trying to make sense of this. Um, let's find a way that we can consistently track [00:24:45] that over time. And, and so, so again, I took on a small consulting project for this company. It wasn't [00:24:51] intending to go back to a full-time role. And, um, when, when, when I saw what this platform could do, [00:24:58] I jumped in feet first or head first, maybe. And, and, you know, we've, we've really seen a lot of, [00:25:05] a lot of positive traction. And the reason why is because everybody seems to struggle with that same, [00:25:10] that same challenge. You buy a lot of expensive tools and try to make them make sense to you. [00:25:15] But if you don't understand what your overall strategy looks like, and you don't understand [00:25:19] what, you know, what you're doing, sometimes it's, it's, you know, it's, it's like playing [00:25:23] whack-a-mole. You, you buy, you know, you buy a platform to fix something and fix that. And then [00:25:27] it's on to the next emergency and you don't always get all the value. In fact, most people don't get [00:25:31] all the value out of, out of any technology that they buy. So kind of full circle to now. [00:25:37] Um, I like to pretend I'm still technical. Um, and I'm, I'm, I'm a long ways from being an engineer, [00:25:43] but, but I, I, I w I would rather hang out with technical people cause I learn more. [00:25:49] Um, and, uh, and that's kind of what I do full circle. I'm chief revenue officer for [00:25:52] site trust technologies and, um, yeah, we're a risk management company. [00:25:58] Oh yeah. Sorry. I got married. I got married in there too. So I've been married for [00:26:02] 24 years this year. I have four children, um, a girl and three boys and, uh, [00:26:10] my youngest just graduated from high school last weekend. That's me. [00:26:14] Awesome. Yeah. I was gonna say, don't forget the wife. Cause, uh, [00:26:22] you were in the dog house. [00:26:24] Yeah, exactly. Life, life, life, life, life changing thing, getting married for sure. [00:26:28] Awesome. Awesome. Katie, I'll pass it over to you. [00:26:32] Well, thank you. And hi, Dave. Um, so Dave and I have had a number of conversations. Um, we co-host or [00:26:41] almost every week for the last year and a half, uh, cyber, cyber security weekend review every Friday. [00:26:47] Uh, I have a lot of time to, to have conversations with them, but you said something new, uh, tonight [00:26:53] that I love. You said, uh, you know, your path into the space that you're in now or initially, [00:26:59] you know, starting off on the sales side was that it was, it wasn't accidental. It was providential. [00:27:04] And I really appreciate that because I think that that is the way that a lot of us fall into the [00:27:08] industry. As a lot of, you know, I started on the sales side as well. And, um, I, I really appreciate [00:27:15] that you said that, uh, about being providential. And I think that, um, you know, having spent a lot of [00:27:20] time with you as well, one of the things I really admire about you is that while you've navigated [00:27:26] technically through a, you know, I, um, for the most part of consulting or sales background, [00:27:31] and you claim not to be an engineer, um, you're one of the best teachers that I know. Um, you, uh, [00:27:38] you have taught me so much and so many people in our industry so much. Um, is there a mentor for you, [00:27:45] uh, that helped you really appreciate that? Or is that something that you really came into [00:27:50] organically, uh, at the beginning of your career, when you started out in the print, [00:27:54] uh, you know, break, fix scenario? Man, Katie, what a, what a great question. Um, I think, [00:28:03] as you know, I love mentors and, and I, I, I, you know, there, there are many people that have been [00:28:10] great mentors to me over the years. Um, the first one that I'll call out is, is, is that guy, Guy Weaver, [00:28:17] um, you know, guy, guy again, was this, was this engineer, um, who's, who's been a senior network [00:28:25] engineer the whole, the whole time that I've known him. And he, again, he's the first guy that helped [00:28:30] me understand that, that, that, that really it's as simple as understanding how technology impacts [00:28:37] business. And, you know, and again, once you know that you can begin to navigate through, [00:28:40] you know, kind of through that process. Um, I will, I will say that, that despite not always seeing eye [00:28:47] to eye with this person, um, the CEO of my last of the, of CBI, the company I was with for 18 years, [00:28:53] I learned a lot about business and, and, and, and, and process from him. Um, I learned a lot about, [00:29:01] about culture and how, and the importance of culture. Um, there's a guy named Martin Fisher. [00:29:07] That's a, that's a CISO of Northside hospital down in Atlanta. Um, he, he taught me a really good lesson. [00:29:14] Um, I, I was, I was sitting down with him. Uh, he was working at a company called Wellstar at the time. [00:29:19] And, and we had put together the $7 million solution for him. I was really excited about [00:29:24] working with him. And I was, you know, jazzed about my newly minted HIPAA, um, knowledge. [00:29:31] And he, you know, he, he, he, we were talking one day and, and listen, one, one of the things, [00:29:37] one of the things that if, if, if you don't know me, if, you know, if you get to know me, [00:29:41] you'll understand that I try to learn something from everybody I come in contact with. [00:29:44] And, and, but there are some standouts, um, you know, in, in, in that process. [00:29:51] And, you know, Martin Fisher was one of those because he, he was, he said, he said, Dave, [00:29:56] he said, you know, what do you think is most important to a, to a CISO in healthcare? You know, [00:30:00] what, what do you, what do you think? What do you think? And he would always make fun of, [00:30:04] he calls it business bingo. Um, you know, back when the cloud first started, started becoming a [00:30:11] ubiquitous word. Every time a vendor would say cloud, he would, he would, you know, [00:30:15] press an invisible buzzer and, you know, and tune them out. Um, but he, he, he asked me that [00:30:21] question and I said, I said, I said, well, that's easy. It's protecting, you know, personally [00:30:26] identifiable information, protected health information. You know, I, you know, I'm grinning [00:30:30] from ear to ear, I'm sure that I've gotten it right. And he said, no, it's patient safety. [00:30:34] And, and that taught, you know, that taught me a really good, that taught me a really good lesson [00:30:38] about understanding the business that you're in. And, and, you know, so, so, so as I think about [00:30:45] mentorship, I think that, and let me get back to Martin for a second. So, so Martin's taught me so [00:30:50] many things about, about vendor client relationships, about, about loyalty and, you know, about, about [00:30:56] strategy and, and, you know, he, he managed to, you know, as a CISO took over, you know, a $150 [00:31:04] million Cerner EHR migration and, and, and crushed it. And, you know, now does, you know, [00:31:12] now does a lot of different things that it is in his business. But, but again, the things that, [00:31:16] you know, the things that he's taught me about vendor relations and about, and about understanding [00:31:20] the business that you're in, you know, it's, those things can, I mean, they're priceless. [00:31:24] You can't, you can't pay for training like that. Unless you pay Russell money, in which case, [00:31:29] then, you know, you're, you're 10 steps ahead of the game. But, but that was a shameless plug, [00:31:34] Russell, you're welcome. Just kidding. No, but you know, with, with, with the, with the, [00:31:39] with the idea of mentorship, you know, I'll, I'll bring this full circle in a second. But [00:31:47] when you think about mentors, they say that the, the, that the since most sincere form of flattery [00:31:53] is imitation. It's not, it's asking someone to coach you. And I think the biggest lesson that I can [00:31:59] that I can share with anybody that's either new to the industry or, or that's been in the industry [00:32:03] a long time, I think seeking out people that either have knowledge that you need to, you need to gain [00:32:10] or, or, or have done something or are doing something that you've done or that you want to do, [00:32:17] or, or perhaps have coached other people to do it or whatever. The most sincere form of flattery is [00:32:22] asking them for coaching and most people that are successful will make the time to, to mentor people [00:32:30] that are serious about asking to be mentored. And so, you know, Hey, do I have mentors for sure? [00:32:35] Do I have one mentor? You know, I, I can, I can point to a few people that are, you know, that have [00:32:40] been, that have been very impactful for me. There's a, there's an entrepreneur and angel investor named [00:32:45] Charles Bracken in Detroit that he's a serial investor in, in, in healthcare companies, built it, [00:32:52] built a consulting company, um, you know, sold it to a larger consulting company. And then, you know, [00:32:56] has continued to build different, different technologies and, and, and companies as an [00:33:01] investor. And he's taught me a tremendous amount about the value of money and, and, and the, you know, [00:33:06] the gold that exists in existing companies, you don't always have to build something new. You can find, [00:33:11] there's lots of things that you can find that are good existing technologies and, and finding a way [00:33:16] to make them better or finding a way to apply them to your business in a different way. You know, [00:33:20] that's that, that is a, that is a, that is a strong key. Um, I've been mentored by people on this [00:33:26] platform, you know, um, uh, Katie, uh, you've been a mentor to me on, on email security. You're, you're the [00:33:32] best person that I know with as in terms of general knowledge about email security. Um, and, and I've [00:33:37] learned a lot from you. I've learned a lot from Tom Ryan about, about application security, [00:33:41] security and social engineering. Um, Sean Bertrand is a, is a, is a, you know, runs the, the red team [00:33:48] and now professional services at CEI, the company I came from, learned a tremendous amount from him [00:33:53] about, about hacking and, and, um, and, and red teaming and, and pen testing. And, and, you know, [00:34:01] my, my career has been filled with absorbing as much information as I can from the people around me. [00:34:07] And then, and then a question that I ask almost everyone I come in contact with eventually is [00:34:13] where do you get the information that's important to you? Um, you know, what sites are you reading? [00:34:17] What's, um, you know, what's the last great book you read or what's the greatest book you've ever read? [00:34:23] Um, I think that there's so much information that's available to us right now. [00:34:28] You know, the, the, the trick is not finding information. The trick is, is compartmentalizing [00:34:33] it and figuring out what's most valuable, valuable to put in your head and most valuable to spend your [00:34:37] time in. And then, and then, and then the other piece is getting involved in, in, in industry groups, [00:34:42] um, you know, getting those, you know, whether, whether or not you need, um, continuing education, [00:34:47] um, hours, I think that anything that offers that is always something you should be thinking about [00:34:55] if it's relevant to your industry for two reasons. Um, one is the content's often very good, although [00:35:01] sometimes it's very bad, but the hallway track on those things is, is, is just so important. Um, [00:35:06] the ability to go there and meet people in the hallway and talk to them about, you know, [00:35:11] what's important to them, what's important to their industry. I have, I have learned more things, [00:35:15] gotten connected to more people and, and engaged in more interesting conversations by asking people [00:35:22] in the hallway of, of events, you know, just about, about what's, what's important to them than, than, [00:35:28] than any, any, any, any other single area. Um, so anyway, lots of people I've learned from in lots [00:35:34] of, in lots of interesting ways. That was long answer to your short question. Sorry. [00:35:39] No, it was amazing. No. And, and what a good reminder now that we're all back in, [00:35:45] person again, it is so much, uh, what a gift to be able to bump into somebody in the hallway [00:35:51] and, and learn some of the best insights. So, uh, thank you so much, Dave. Over to you. [00:35:56] I have, I have a question. Oh, go ahead. Sorry. Sorry. [00:35:58] No, I was just gonna say, I have a question for the, for, for the moderators. Um, now that, [00:36:04] now that, now that we're past this crazy COVID thing, speaking of what Katie just said, [00:36:09] I, and when I say past it, I understand that, that there are lots of, there are lots of, um, [00:36:15] scary things in the world. And, and I'm not suggesting that, that everyone is safe from [00:36:20] everything. What I, what I am saying is that, is that I do believe that we've passed a very [00:36:24] important milestone in that. And that is really understanding that, that it is important to, [00:36:28] to engage in person and things. And, and so I guess my question for you is, I think that, [00:36:34] for the panel is, I think that, that life has changed significantly from a business perspective. [00:36:39] What do you guys think is the greatest, um, sort of, um, the thing that you missed that you, [00:36:47] that you're most benefiting from now, as we go back to in-person engagement. And then what are, [00:36:52] what are some, what are a couple of things that you might've learned during COVID that, you know, [00:36:57] during, during the great shutdown of 2020, um, that, that, that you'll, that you'll now bring with [00:37:04] you in your business and in, in, in, in, in your team building? [00:37:08] I feel like if it's okay with the other mods, if I can answer this one first, because I do have to [00:37:13] drop slightly early this evening for an event at my son's school, but I have to say this because, [00:37:20] uh, the thing I learned the most is that I'm actually an okay public speaker and that I'm actually [00:37:26] an okay, uh, email expert. And it was one day during COVID, I was making a grilled cheese sandwich [00:37:33] and listening to a clubhouse room and Dave, who I had worked with in his previous, you know, [00:37:38] iteration at one of his companies said, okay, do you know a thing or two about email? Right? And I [00:37:43] was like, well, yes I do. And you're not in the middle of making a grilled cheese sandwich, very [00:37:47] nervously came on stage and spoke to a room and it was, uh, one of those things. So I think for me, [00:37:54] um, you know, coming out of COVID and now being able to go in and present in person and, um, carry that [00:38:01] skill set through. Um, but I also want to take that opportunity to say you were the one who really [00:38:06] were the, was the first person to get me up on stage at all on this platform. So. [00:38:11] That's, that's an incredible honor to have done that Katie, because if I was part of exposing you to [00:38:18] the, you know, to the world of, of, uh, of networking in, in, in that way and engagement, man, I feel so, [00:38:24] I feel so fortunate because you have so much to offer. Um, when, when, when, when you've done [00:38:29] those diversity conversations on here, I mean, I, I, you, you've made me recognize some things in a [00:38:35] way that I, that I've never thought about before. So yeah, that's, that's awesome. I think it's a [00:38:38] really good point. What do the rest of y'all think about that? But just, you know, what, what, what, [00:38:44] what, what do you most like about being back, you know, back engaging with people? And then, [00:38:48] and then what are you gonna, what are you gonna keep with you from, from the COVID time, from the dark times? [00:38:53] So, um, I'll chime in here because, um, I think that there's so many silver linings from the last, [00:39:02] and lessons from the last two and a half years that, um, I'm still trying to figure out all of the things [00:39:08] that have been learned. But one of the things that I learned was, um, that time with the people that [00:39:14] you love just can't be replaced. Um, and so I'm making mindful decisions about how to spend my time [00:39:22] as there are new demands, um, that I haven't had, um, in terms of place and space. Um, and so I think [00:39:30] for, uh, like I'm still navigating it. I found out that I was really amazing at, um, doing all sorts [00:39:37] of cooking at home that I just didn't have, like, including breaking breads. I didn't know that I was [00:39:43] great at making breads. Who knew? But here I am. Um, so I think that, um, you know, I wrote a book [00:39:50] during the COVID times. I figured out that there were lots of things I could do with that extra time [00:39:55] and energy and I don't want to lose that, um, initiative and momentum because I don't think I [00:40:01] have to. That's awesome. That whole idea of work, you know, work smarter, not harder. I mean, and, [00:40:09] and I don't know, I feel like I'm working just as hard as I ever have right now, but, [00:40:13] but, but you're right. Um, being intentional about taking that time. Um, you know, I went golfing [00:40:21] during the daytime with my 20 year old son and I just want to do that every day now. That's, [00:40:26] that's all I want to do when I wake up tomorrow. I'm like, Hey, I want to go play golf with my kid. [00:40:30] You know, anyway, I, and I, and I think, and I think I, I, you know, it took me a while to figure [00:40:34] that out, but I think you're right. I think that's a really good, a really good example of that with COVID. [00:40:44] Yeah. I would say, I like how you turned this whole spotlight from you to us. Um, [00:40:50] um, like I, I kind of peaked that, but I'm going to answer your question Dave. Um, and then I'm going [00:40:56] to kind of throw it back to you. Right. So for me, um, one of the things like before COVID, I was super [00:41:05] engaged in trying to have, trying to be visible and be a role model, not a one-on-one role model, [00:41:13] but like just super engaged in trying to be a role model in, in pulling more people to be out there to [00:41:19] provide representation within the industry so that people know that, you know, that they too can be [00:41:25] a, um, in security at high levels functioning. And during COVID, I realized how much me and my group [00:41:33] of friends, which was my group of friends were like maybe 60 or 70 people were just failing because [00:41:40] so many people were lost. Right. So many people. Did not, and I'm grateful for platforms like clubhouse [00:41:47] and, and for mobs for pulling, you know, this group together, but it's just one of those things that I [00:41:53] realized that, um, there were so many people who were out there wondering and did not know and like [00:42:01] did not have groups of people or, or they would just kind of, they wanted to be in security, but they [00:42:06] didn't know how to kind of maneuver within that, or even look up to see anyone else. And so, um, so [00:42:15] that's one of the things I learned during COVID. And one of the things that I kind of take with me [00:42:21] is I'm super engaged with my team of what I can actually handle, like my team of people who report [00:42:27] into me to make sure that they are supported and have full, um, and have full, uh, support from a [00:42:36] training development, you know, whatever you want to do that, if you can do it and trying to be very [00:42:42] intentional around building them up so that they can actually do whatever they want to do. Um, even [00:42:47] if it's not stay at Equifax Canada with me. Right. So I just, I just think that's something that, um, [00:42:55] that I realized it was an awesome moment for me, but I will actually, okay. [00:43:00] I was just gonna say, I love that Octavia. I, and I, and I hope, I hope we continue with that. I [00:43:05] hope, I hope we continue to provide people with a voice. I hope that people are continually encouraged [00:43:10] to take, to step out and take, you know, take that, take that initiative. There are many people, [00:43:14] you know, um, Jenny Hederman in the audience there. Um, she's, she's, uh, works, she's a, she's a great [00:43:21] attorney who works in risk for the Commonwealth of Massachusetts. I never would have [00:43:25] met Jenny had I, had I not, you know, had, had, had this, had this platform not have happened and [00:43:29] had clubhouse not have, you know, done what it done, what it's done. And now why would I ever go [00:43:34] to the Commonwealth of Massachusetts LinkedIn page? Now I actually go there and watch them, [00:43:38] their content is pretty good. You know, their, their risk content. So I, I think, I think you're right. [00:43:43] I think, I think one thing, you know, we're, we're able to, we're able to now integrate with this cross, [00:43:49] you know, cross industry, cross geographic, um, you know, you know, perspective and we're getting [00:43:57] exposure to people that we never would have before. And I think that, you know, we can, we can, we can [00:44:03] hang our heads and feel sorry for ourselves, or we can take advantage of the value that this time has [00:44:08] been. And, and it's been tragic for many, many people. And I, and I don't want to take anything [00:44:13] away from that because it has been a very difficult time for lots of people. But, but if we, if we [00:44:19] figured out, my dad always says, your attitude determines your altitude. And if we figure out [00:44:23] the way that we're going to approach this moving forward, and we understand what altitude we want, [00:44:27] we want to be at and take initiative from a business perspective, I think you're spot on Octavia. [00:44:31] I think, I think, I think you just made a really solid point. Thank you for, thank you for doing that. [00:44:34] I'm sorry. I didn't mean to interrupt you. No, you're fine. Like one of the things that you said, [00:44:39] um, when you were doing your, um, your intro was, you know, your, your origin story was that you had [00:44:47] someone that kind of talked to you and you like, it was an aha moment for you that technology impacts [00:44:52] business. Right. So like, one of the things that we kind of look at and we understood during a COVID [00:44:58] was like, people want it so badly to get into cyber and to, to be a cyber engineer or a consultant [00:45:05] or an analyst. Right. But just for those who are in the audience, like I would ask you like, [00:45:11] how much do you, or what can you actually say to those who are, who are looking to, to, to really [00:45:17] maneuver and kind of move up, you know, technology impacts business, but how much does business impact [00:45:24] technology? And actually as you, as a chief revenue officer, what value do you see in cyber and like [00:45:30] those, um, those team members and those employees kind of adding value back to your bottom line? [00:45:40] Yeah. Thanks for that question, Octavia. I think it's a really important one. Um, I think that, [00:45:45] um, and I'll, I'll, I'll bring it back to mentors again, just cause there's so many people that have [00:45:50] impacted me in a positive way. Um, the first CISO that I saw that, that actually had the pulse of the [00:45:57] CEO and a CIO was a guy named John Bisco. Um, he's, he was the, he was the CISO for Flagstar Bank. [00:46:04] And I had been, I had been engaging with, uh, with CIOs with, with, there weren't really a lot [00:46:11] of chief information security officers, but it had been, it had been it had been it directors or CIOs [00:46:15] or CFOs. And most of the security people were, were people that took, didn't really know security. [00:46:22] They had just taken the role, um, either because they were interested in cybersecurity and, and this [00:46:26] isn't universally true. There are lots of people that knew a lot about security, but mostly in [00:46:30] leadership positions, it was, it was the guy that wasn't, you know, it was the guy at the hospital [00:46:34] that was the least busy, um, you know, least busy it guy or finance guy that had gotten along with one [00:46:43] of the auditors. And so they, they, you know, waved the magic, the made the magic sign and, and [00:46:49] bless them as the, as the information security officer. Um, John Biscoe is different. Um, [00:46:54] he's the first guy that, that I, that I met that, that came from a business background and he was a [00:47:00] finance guy and he, he figured out how to, how to learn cybersecurity. So he, you know, he, he, [00:47:08] he latched on to some of the people that were, you know, um, he was doing some innovative stuff [00:47:15] like loan and loan origination over ISD on lines, but you know, video loan origination over ISD on [00:47:19] lines back in the early two thousands and early, you know, late nineties and, and, you know, super, [00:47:24] super cutting edge stuff with Intel ProShare cards. And, and, you know, this, this is a, this is a guy that, [00:47:30] that, you know, did some cool things with technology, but he really learned from the people around him and, [00:47:35] and, and, you know, and, and really sucked in all the, all the cybersecurity information that he could. [00:47:39] But the thing that I, that I noticed about him is that he had a way, there was a guy named Charles, [00:47:43] Charles Kirkpatrick that was the CIO at the time. And Charles was, was kind of this, you know, old school, [00:47:50] um, you know, business guy bank, you know, banking board of executives, or, you know, um, uh, you know, [00:47:57] a board member, um, you know, super executive presence. And John had figured out how to communicate [00:48:04] to this guy from a business perspective, what, you know, what's, what's required and what's, [00:48:09] you know, and, and, and how to, uh, you know, how, how to, how to, how to place value on, [00:48:15] on solutions and how to, you know, how to get the most out of your technology and stuff like that. [00:48:19] So he just figured out what this guy's number was and, and, and really, you know, it wasn't [00:48:23] manipulative at all. It was him, it was him really looking at what does Charles want from the, you [00:48:29] know, what does Charles want? What is the business asking Charles to do? What is Charles really saying [00:48:35] when he has these standards, you know, these meetings with his, with his team and he, you know, he, he [00:48:40] pounds the table and talks about what's important and he, you know, whatever, whatever, whatever [00:48:45] gestures he's making, whatever posture he's making, um, you know, what is he really thinking and what's [00:48:49] important to him? And, and by the way, Charles is a very, very accomplished executive, you know, [00:48:53] really good guy, but, but he was, you know, he, he had a way about him. And so, and so John figured [00:48:58] out how to, how to really understand what he wanted and, and also understand what he needed [00:49:04] and guide the conversation in a way that made Charles successful. And I think, and I think any [00:49:10] advice that I would give to anybody at any level is if you want to move up quickly in an organization, [00:49:15] you've got to understand what does the business want? Was it, what does the business actually desire [00:49:19] to have happen? Um, and I, and I think, I think you owe it to yourself in this market as a technology [00:49:26] professional. I think you owe it to yourself to understand whether or not your company's capable [00:49:30] of getting you to, of getting the business to where they want to go. Um, and if you, if you can impact [00:49:36] that and make it go faster, if you can find a way to do something better, if you can find a way to [00:49:41] articulate how technology spend can help grow the business. If you can find a way to, [00:49:45] you, um, you know, truly understand what that intersection of what the business wants and what [00:49:52] the business needs, um, you know, where that intersection is, you can successfully do lots [00:49:57] of things. And, and, and, and so I think that's true at every level within an organization. I think, [00:50:03] I think if you're a, you know, if you, if you're a, if you're a help desk guy, I think, you know, [00:50:09] I think many people, you know, many people kind of look down on SOC positions or help desk [00:50:14] positions and they're like, yeah, you know, it's entry level, you know, but, but if you're in [00:50:18] customer care, for instance, you have an understanding of what your customers actually [00:50:23] are talking about. If you are in, so if you're, if you're in client success, if you're in, if you're [00:50:29] in customer care, if you're in customer service, if you're a CSR, you're, you're, you're so close to [00:50:35] what the, you know, to what the people want. Um, uh, um, you, you, you have, you have the ability to, [00:50:43] to understand, you know, what, what your customers are thinking and saying. And when you do that, [00:50:49] when, when you, when you get an understanding of that, you, you've got, you've got intelligence [00:50:53] that the business doesn't always think about, um, by the same token, if you're a SOC analyst, [00:50:59] you, you have visibility into what, into what's happening from a cybersecurity perspective at your [00:51:03] business. And if you educate yourself and understand what are the ramifications for my [00:51:08] business, what are other companies doing in this, in this, in this arena? I think if you're an employee [00:51:12] of a publicly traded company, if you haven't read your 10 K you're doing yourself a disservice. Um, [00:51:18] there's information available about publicly traded companies that everyone has access to. And if you're [00:51:23] not reading it, you're never going to advance in the, in, in, in the company, the way that you, [00:51:28] the way that you need to be. Um, one of the things that I learned about from a sales perspective, [00:51:33] you know, I, I never, I still hate it when people call me a salesperson. [00:51:38] Um, I'm, I'm, I'm pretty good at it, but I hate it when people call me a salesperson. I, I, it just [00:51:43] makes me feel, it makes me feel like a used car guy. And it makes me feel a little slimy when somebody [00:51:48] says points at me and says sales. Um, the, the CEO of CBI always used to say I was a nuclear sales [00:51:54] engineer and, and I, and I, and I, I, I really liked that designation. But, but one of the things that I [00:52:01] learned is, is you, you have to, you have to figure out what your common ground is with, [00:52:05] you know, with the people you're dealing with, you have to, you have to figure out what they need. [00:52:09] Um, you have to figure out, you know, if, if, if they're asking you, if they're saying they, [00:52:14] they want something and you can recognize that they need something else, if you can find a way to [00:52:22] work with them and understand them well enough so that you can help them come to a decision on their [00:52:27] own, not forcing them to make a decision, but help them get to a decision that they make on their own. [00:52:32] Not only, not only are you going to benefit from it, but they're going to benefit from it. And you're [00:52:36] going to make a friend for life in that process. And so I think you have to do that up and down the [00:52:40] ladder, up and down the chain in an organization. If you can figure out what the direction of your [00:52:45] company is and communicate that to your customers and your constituents, your end users, it doesn't [00:52:49] matter where you are in the, on, on the ladder, it's going to push you up by, by, by raising up the [00:52:55] things that you do because, because you're committed to doing things for other people. [00:53:00] And I think by the same token, you understand what the people above you want and then, and then, [00:53:04] and then leverage that to, you know, in a, in a way that, in a way that's, uh, that's helpful for them as well. [00:53:10] No, no, long answer for a question. Hopefully that answered, answered what you were saying. [00:53:23] Right. So what is that? Go ahead. [00:53:28] No, no, you go ahead. No, I'm just going to say, I love that. I love that. You know, [00:53:34] looking at, looking at it from, you have to look at your business, um, and really understand it. [00:53:39] Right. Like kind of going into like, looking at the 10 Ks, understanding your proposition. And even if [00:53:45] you're like a junior level or entry level for you to actually have taken initiative to actually look at [00:53:51] your, your business model and what, what makes your company, um, successful and then the future of [00:53:58] where they're trying to get to, and even the investor relations, um, the investor relations meetings and [00:54:05] listening to those recordings, it's, it's super, um, helpful as well to understand where your company's [00:54:10] going. [00:54:10] All right. I agree with that. Um, go ahead, Dave. [00:54:19] I was gonna say, I'd like to, I'd like to respond to something, you know, a couple of people have said in [00:54:23] the chat. First of all, Tom, you're spot on cyber is a lifetime of endless learning. The day you stop [00:54:27] learning is the day you start dying. And, and I, I really think that, I really think that that's, [00:54:32] that that's just so it's just so it's so important. So apropos there's a, there's a website, there's a [00:54:39] guy named Josh Kaufman that has a website called personalmba.com. Um, and, and this, he wrote a book [00:54:46] about it, um, but he's got a book list on his site. So his, his premise is that you don't really need a, [00:54:53] um, a, a degree from a B school or an MBA to, you know, to, to, to, to build that next thing, [00:55:01] you know, that could get to that next rung on the ladder of whatever ladder you're climbing. [00:55:05] And, and I really liked the list of, and there's lots of lists of business books out there, [00:55:11] but I like his manifesto and I like the way he pushes that forward. Um, you know, you know, [00:55:18] again, and I mentioned this earlier, um, we have access to so much information and he's, you know, [00:55:24] Josh Kaufman's put together this, this business list and there, there, there are better lists out there, [00:55:28] but, but, but none of them are, are as simply arranged as this one. So personalmba.com. Um, [00:55:35] you know, he talks about his journey in, in learning about business and, and, and I think at any level, [00:55:40] at any level of any organizations you're in, you have to, you know, if, if you want to get ahead in this [00:55:46] life and, and even, I mean, that sounds so trite when I say, if you want to get ahead in this life, [00:55:52] anyway, I'm not trying to be cliche, but you do have to understand marketing and sales and finance [00:55:58] and technology and systems and automation and processes and, and, and executive development, [00:56:05] and all those things reading, you know, looking at that list of books and, and, and reading the [00:56:12] ones that appeal to you. If you don't understand what, you know, what direction you're, you're, [00:56:17] you're looking to go look at that list of books and find one that calls out to you and appeals to you, [00:56:23] read the book. If it's interesting, read another one. Um, you will find your path [00:56:31] as you devour the information that's around you, as you ask successful people, what they're, you know, [00:56:36] what they're reading, what they're paying attention to, who they're interacting with. And, you know, and [00:56:41] again, going back to that mentor, you know, that mentoring process, but, but I think, you know, I think, [00:56:45] I think, I think you really have to, you have to be intentional about your, about your, about your [00:56:49] learning process and you are never too old or never too young to, to be mentored or to learn. [00:56:59] Personal MBA is a good book. I read that one. And I agree with you, Dave, you are definitely never [00:57:05] too old to be mentored. Um, David Cass, I know you just, you joined us a little while ago. I'll just [00:57:12] give you a minute to introduce yourself. I also want to say, uh, if there's anybody in the audience [00:57:17] that wants to jump up on stage and ask Dave a question, feel free to raise your hand and we'll [00:57:22] bring you up and you can ask a question. So David Cass, why don't you take a minute to introduce [00:57:27] yourself? And if you do have a question for Dave, why don't you ask it? Oh, sure. David Cass, uh, [00:57:33] again, any opinion express is my own. Uh, currently the global CISO and CTO for [00:57:39] GSR.io, uh, crypto market making company, uh, former federal appointee. So happy to be joining [00:57:46] you guys, uh, today. And I guess the question I have for Dave, probably, yeah. So now I've gone [00:57:54] from big corporate to startups and it's a whole different world. So you have a lot of experience [00:57:58] kind of working in that space. So how do you kind of, you know, help be a culture carrier [00:58:04] in something completely new like that? Oh man, I think that's what a great question, David. [00:58:13] And I've, you know, I've had the opportunity to kind of go both directions on that. I've worked [00:58:16] for the smallest of the small and I've worked for some fairly large companies as well. [00:58:20] And I think that, I think that one of the things that you have to do is, is, is embrace culture within [00:58:28] your, within your department, figure out what the corporate culture is. First of all, when you, [00:58:32] when you take a role in an organization, um, I think one of the filters that people need to think [00:58:38] about as they're, as they're, as they're moving through, um, that, that upwards climb or that, [00:58:45] that, you know, that tangential climb, um, you know, whether, whether you're, you know, [00:58:49] whether you're climbing a corporate ladder or whether you are, you are, you know, um, [00:58:54] going from ladder to ladder or whatever, I think you have to be cautious about the cultures that you [00:58:58] join. Um, it is not very often that you can go into a business and change the culture of the business. [00:59:04] Um, the, the flip side of that is as when you're joining a startup, you do have that ability to, [00:59:10] to make that impact. And so I think, you know, I think, I think a couple of things, [00:59:16] I think you have to decide what hill you're going to die on. Um, there are some very strong [00:59:22] personalities in, in startup organizations. And, and, and if you read, you know, you go back and, and, [00:59:30] and, and read the old Bibles of this industry, crossing the chasm inside the tornado by Jeffrey [00:59:35] Moore, um, the innovators dilemma by Clayton Christensen. Um, and you really look at how, I mean, [00:59:41] I mean, that stuff, that stuff was, was relevant 25 years ago when it was written and it's relevant [00:59:46] today. Um, understanding how, you know, how innovative, you know, blue ocean, like there's [00:59:53] just, there's just a ton of great reading material out there on, on, on culture and, you know, and [00:59:58] building that, uh, Patrick Lencioni's books on culture are, you know, his, his leadership fables [01:00:03] are just amazing. Um, I think one of the things that you have to do from a cultural perspective is, [01:00:09] is, is, is really, you know, again, as you're joining a company, make sure that it's a culture [01:00:13] that you can live with because, because you may not be able to change it. Um, I think, you know, [01:00:19] secondarily find, um, find ideas and authors and, and leaders that can articulate what, you know, [01:00:27] what you, what you know to be true. Um, make sure that you're, that you're doing your research with [01:00:35] outside, you know, outside organizations as well. One thing that happens with strong-willed people in, [01:00:40] in a strong-willed culture is that many times, um, you know, you, you've been in essentially a long [01:00:47] time and, you know, you, you, there are things that you inherently just know. And, and there will [01:00:53] be times when people, when you make a suggestion and people will not listen to you until it's validated [01:01:02] by an outside, you know, by an outside party. So if you think about Gartner and any, any, any, [01:01:07] any number of the other, you know, analyst organizations that are out there, um, keep a, [01:01:13] keep a file of things that are culturally important to you. Um, stay, you know, stay reading industry rags, [01:01:19] um, everything from, you know, even if you're not, uh, you know, not in the computer reseller industry, [01:01:26] read computer reseller news. There's a lot of, there's a lot of data in magazines like that in [01:01:32] Forbes and fortune and, you know, in, in, in, uh, computer reseller news and, in, even in stuff [01:01:37] like SC magazine, you know, get to know, get to know the data sources that you, that you, that you, [01:01:44] that you, uh, you know, that you trust. And, and one hard lesson for me is, [01:01:50] and this is really difficult for me because words of affirmation are really important motivator for me. [01:01:55] Um, so I just, I just smile from ear to ear when I get credit for something, [01:02:00] it's almost better than money, not quite, but almost better than money. Um, [01:02:05] when, when, when a great idea comes from me and I'm right, oh man, I love that. But one of the [01:02:11] things that I'm trying really hard to do is I'm trying really hard to, when I notice something [01:02:16] that, you know, that perhaps needs to, needs to be impacted in one way or the other, [01:02:19] um, try to get to it with, you know, with your leadership team. So build the culture within your [01:02:24] own team, um, outside with other leaders. One of the things that's really valuable to do is, [01:02:29] is work through it with them instead of just bringing a package solution to them, [01:02:34] work through it with them and figure out a way in life. All you want to do is sit on the same side [01:02:40] of the table as somebody else. I mean, that's, that's the, I think that's a secret to relationships, [01:02:44] right? Figure out a way to sit on the same side of the table. So it's you and them against the world. [01:02:48] And when you do that, that's magic, it's magic and personal relationship relationships, [01:02:52] it's magic and professional relationships. So I think, you know, I think really, you know, [01:02:57] getting a body of evidence that, that, you know, that, that points to ideas that are important to [01:03:01] you and then sharing that in a way that is not, Hey, you know, this is the way we should do things, [01:03:06] or you're an idiot, you know, or in, instead, and I'm not suggesting that you would go about [01:03:11] something that way. I'm being a little, I'm being a little melodramatic for effect, but, [01:03:15] you know, instead, you know, taking that study with them, you know, bringing out the malware [01:03:20] bytes reported or the, or the DVR from, from Verizon or whatever, and saying, you know, listen, [01:03:25] here's what's going on from a trends perspective. I mean, what do you think about that? And then, [01:03:29] you know, and, and by the way, here's an article from Gartner that says that, you know, spend is going [01:03:33] to increase in this area. What can we do about that? And, and if you can, and if you can have that [01:03:36] be collaborative and you're sitting on that side of the table, then you're not holding one over on [01:03:41] people and lecturing them. And in the end, when you affect change that way, you, you help the [01:03:46] organization trust you in a way that's in a, in a way that's natural and real. [01:03:54] Thanks. That's definitely a great answer. Tomas, I'll turn it over back to you. [01:04:00] Yeah. I'm so surprised nobody's raised their hand to jump up on stage to ask you a question, [01:04:04] Dave, this is a shock to the system. I know they're, they're just very much intrigued with [01:04:11] everything that you're saying, and they are speechless. But look, I'll pass it over to you, [01:04:16] Russell. I think you have another question. So I'll pass it over to you. [01:04:20] Yep. Happy to. And Dave, what a treat to be sitting beside you here and on stage on Clubhouse and the [01:04:28] work you've done, creating community, being a great partner in Clubhouse. Every Friday at 2 PM, [01:04:35] when I'm available, I always come in and always learn something. And it's always just an amazing [01:04:41] opportunity and space that you create. So I really appreciate that so much. You reminded me, I mean, [01:04:47] when we talked about 1987, Lotus 1-2-3, we're perfect. I'm like, man, going down memory lane. And, [01:04:53] and it's just so, uh, we're all interesting. Yeah, we are, we are. Yep. And I think that, [01:05:02] you know, my question you talked earlier about, you know, your advisory service, uh, and, and I love [01:05:06] the, the words that you use, you know, the reactions you get to the, you know, your quote, paperweights, [01:05:11] what's your like best and worst? Like, is there an example where somebody like took that paperweight, [01:05:15] did something with it? And, or maybe you have an experience where someone just like, [01:05:19] maybe threw it in the trash or something. And I'm just kind of giving ideas of [01:05:23] what's some like best and worst responses to, uh, delivery and receipt of that paperweight [01:05:28] that you mentioned earlier. You know, it's a weird thing in consulting. Um, I think that sometimes [01:05:36] people are, when, when people pay a lot of money for a service, I think something, you know, it's, [01:05:42] it's, it's one of the emperor's emperor where, you know, has no clothes type of thing. When, when you, [01:05:47] when you get the deliverable and you're disappointed with it, you have to be careful about what you, [01:05:51] you know, kind of what you say with that, because you're the one that, if you're the buyer, you're [01:05:55] the one that stood behind, you know, you're the one that made the decision to buy from that company. [01:05:59] And so sometimes when people are disappointed with the, you know, with, with things like that, [01:06:02] I have seen people just kind of climb up and, you know, thanks for the deliverable and, and, [01:06:08] you know, you recognize that you don't, you know, you won't, you won't get the business again. [01:06:12] And I think that, I think that, again, one of the things I love about Saturis is, is we naturally, [01:06:19] um, because it's just a part of our DNA, we naturally follow up and we naturally manage [01:06:25] the process with the customer and we become partners with the customer and, and our partners [01:06:30] through that process. So, so, and, and this is not a pitch for Saturis, but I'll just tell you a little [01:06:35] bit about the evolution of the company. Cause I think it's important to understand [01:06:38] that we were a advisory services consulting company for many years. Um, and, and the platform [01:06:44] that we have was a product of seven years of work from our founder, going from spreadsheets and huge [01:06:50] word documents to saying, I can't even manage this. Like, like, not only does it not make sense to my [01:06:54] customers, it doesn't even make sense to me anymore. And so he built this web platform and, and, you know, [01:07:00] three years ago, um, companies like KPMG and ENY would come into his, you know, come into his [01:07:07] customers that where he'd done an assessment and that had this platform and they would say, Hey, [01:07:12] you know, what's this platform? Because the customer would like, would, you know, [01:07:16] it spit out an audit report for, you know, pre-audit report for them. And, you know, it'd be like a NIST, [01:07:22] you know, NIST 800, 171 report or, or, you know, whatever it was. And they'd say, you know, can we [01:07:28] get, can we get our hands on them? And the customer would say, man, you know, I'm sure, I'm sure he'd be [01:07:31] willing to do that. And then they would call him up and, and, and Robert would say, no, you can't have it. [01:07:36] That's mine. That's my, that's my IP. No, you, you know, no, you can't license it. No, you can't [01:07:42] have it. No, you can't, you know, you can't pay me for it. You can't buy it. It's mine. And, you [01:07:47] know, a couple of years ago, um, say church became intentional about offering it as a platform. So [01:07:52] we're pretty young in terms of offering it as a platform. We've offered it as a service for years, [01:07:56] but we're young and offering, offering it as a platform. And I think what that's done is it's really [01:08:00] created that, you know, created that, that, that sort of end to end connectivity with people [01:08:07] in a positive way. Um, I think, I think that the, probably the, you know, I, I literally have had [01:08:12] someone, um, not to me, but I've had, I've watched someone, um, that, that I was, you know, that I was an [01:08:20] advisor to, I've watched someone literally throw away a consulting, um, uh, uh, result in, you know, [01:08:27] literally trash it, like literally say, this is garbage and throw out in there, you know, [01:08:30] throw out the garbage can. Um, what I, what the reaction that I like to see from people [01:08:36] is for them to come back anytime and say, and say, listen, you know, I appreciate the work that [01:08:41] you've done. These things did not meet the mark. What can we do to get to the right spot there? [01:08:46] Um, and I think the people that approach things that way and are, and are intellectually honest, [01:08:51] listen, I think in any consulting engagement, anytime you're doing advisory services, [01:08:55] the most important thing is transparent communication. Um, if you can both get over [01:08:59] your egos, you know, ego is a big thing in this industry. Ego spoils more business than anything [01:09:04] else in this industry. You can both get over yourselves and, and, and enter into a transparent [01:09:08] conversation where you're, where you're able to be intellectually honest with each other and, [01:09:13] and call each other out when, when things are, you know, when things are, are not, you know, [01:09:17] not as they, as they need to be and say, listen, how do we get this to great and, and work together to get [01:09:24] there. That's when the magic happens. That's amazing. And for the record, it was not me. [01:09:31] I just made up that thing about throwing it away, but sad that actually happened. [01:09:34] Yeah. Yeah. Well, and you know, we ever get to like, it's just so cool. The question you asked [01:09:41] earlier of, you know, things that we'll get to do in the future now that the world is behaving itself [01:09:46] a little bit better, uh, the in-person, the, uh, just the hoping is very few, if any folks I've met [01:09:53] in real life as I'm scrolling through the room here and the, of the thoughts of, wow, [01:09:59] I get to like see you in person. And I've had that experience a couple of times last month when I went [01:10:02] to San Diego at an event and it's like, Whoa, that I hear, I recognize that voice and I, and there you [01:10:08] are. And it's just gonna be so amazing as we're able to, and willing to get together and, um, maybe not [01:10:14] as much as we used to, but to connect in person is something that is super, super special. I look forward to [01:10:20] doing more of it. Russell, I think we should make it a point to, um, to start building some meetups. [01:10:28] I know Jennifer's done some of the, Jennifer Sanders has done some of this, Tom, Tom Ryan's [01:10:32] done some of this, but I mean, wouldn't it be cool if the cybersecurity community on Clubhouse, [01:10:37] either, either at Blackhead or something had a, had a, had a designated meetup, um, where, you know, [01:10:44] where we actually got it, you know, got a venue and, and, uh, you know, met up and spent some time [01:10:49] together or, you know, maybe intentionally a year from now, um, have something in person. [01:10:54] You know, I know, I know Tom's, Tom's, uh, Tom's zoom background at least looks like a really huge [01:11:00] place. Maybe you can just host it as it is, it is, it is, uh, Wall Street apartment in New York or [01:11:05] something, but, but in all, in all seriousness, I, you know, I, I agree with you. I think, I think [01:11:09] getting together in person is a really good idea and I, and I hope that more of us do that as, as this, [01:11:14] as this continues to grow. Well, we'll definitely see a few of you at RSA, uh, next week, but yeah, I, [01:11:22] I definitely agree. I think, uh, in-person meetups are, are definitely, definitely needed. Um, [01:11:31] Anil, you want to say something? Sure. I got a quick question for Dave. Uh, and, you know, [01:11:34] I, I agree. I mean, if anything taught us, you know, the in-person connection is critical, right? [01:11:40] Virtual is nice, but it does not replace that in-person, you know, engagement. Um, Dave, you know, [01:11:46] one of the things is, you know, I've learned over the years is we share a lot of Sam Peer's colleagues. [01:11:51] Some of them happen to be clients. Uh, one theme that's holds true with all of them. Uh, they talk [01:11:57] about you is trust and how you've established it. Uh, tell us about where that comes from, [01:12:04] how you go about establishing, you've touched upon it, but establishing trust, especially when you're [01:12:09] engaging, uh, external party, uh, you, you're stepping into that role as trusted advisor. What goes [01:12:16] into the makeup of being that entity, uh, that, uh, you know, you can rely upon. [01:12:23] Man, Anil, first of all, you, uh, I, I know you didn't do this intentionally, but I said words of [01:12:30] affirmation about, about 10 minutes ago and you just gave me words of affirmation. I got to tell you [01:12:34] like that, that, I mean, that's, that's, I'm going to, I'm going to glow about that for a couple [01:12:38] hours here. So thank you for that. No, I'm just kidding. Right on then. Well, listen, uh, you know, [01:12:47] I couldn't ask for a better compliment than that. I think, I think that, you know, for me, trust is [01:12:52] important. Trust is important to me because I, you know, I've been burned and, and, and it's, it's just, [01:12:58] it's just never a good feeling. I think, I think some things go into trust. I think you can't force [01:13:04] trust. You can't make someone trust you. And the more you try, the less someone's going to trust [01:13:09] you. So, so first of all, we can, we can get rid of the idea that, that it's possible to make [01:13:14] someone trust you. Um, I think the things that go into establishing a trust relationship are honesty. [01:13:19] And when I, when I say honesty, one of the hardest things I've ever had to do [01:13:25] is walk away from a seven figure deal that was going to pay my mortgage, um, because it wasn't the [01:13:31] right solution for a customer. But I promise you that the one time I've taught, you know, [01:13:37] with just about everyone I've ever done business with, I have steered them away from a project at [01:13:42] one time or another. And it's because I truly didn't think it was the right thing for them to do. [01:13:46] When all the cards were on the table and I, and I, and I saw what everybody brought to the table. [01:13:51] Um, I will always, without question, advise someone not to go down a path if it's the wrong path. [01:13:58] And that's, and that's something that I don't think in my career I've broken more than one or two times. [01:14:08] And when I, you know, when I, when I've done that, it's always been, and you know, very early in my career. [01:14:14] Um, I said, I was never going to sell anything and never, and never work in technology. Um, one summer, [01:14:21] um, when I was 18 years old, I worked for three months for a company called Pacesetter. [01:14:28] And they were basically Anderson windows, but door to door. So think of 10 cup. Um, I was that guy. [01:14:36] And, and I was with a, so, so I'm 18 years old. I'm, I'm the youngest person this company has ever [01:14:42] hired as an outside salesperson. I have no idea how I got the job, but I'm riding with a guy who's 26 years [01:14:48] old and he's, he's the second youngest guy this company ever hired. Right. And, and this guy's, [01:14:53] this guy, this guy can sell ice cubes to Eskimos. I mean, he's, he's just, he's just a, [01:14:58] he's just an incredibly gifted salesperson and probably, probably a con artist to boot, but [01:15:05] he sold, I, I, so I was riding with him, you know, kind of learning the ropes and, and, uh, [01:15:10] uh, he sold customer replacement windows to a woman in Farmington, New Mexico that you could see [01:15:17] through the cracks in her walls and he sold her $35,000 worth of windows. [01:15:23] And I felt so awful walking away from that. I mean, it just, it, it just, it was everything in [01:15:29] me now. I like, I felt like throwing up. And, and when I saw that, I, one of the things that I [01:15:35] realized is that it's just, it's just never worth it. It's not worth it. If you get to the point where [01:15:40] you're so hardened that you can, that you can not only watch someone make a bad decision, [01:15:45] but help them make a bad decision. I just don't know how you can live with yourself. And, and that's, [01:15:50] and so I have this visceral reaction to, to steering someone down the wrong path. Now that doesn't mean [01:15:55] that I, that I haven't taken risks in business. That doesn't mean that I haven't, you know, that I [01:15:59] haven't asked people to trust me in, you know, in, in scenarios where, where, um, it, where it was a [01:16:08] stretch for me to deliver what we needed to deliver, but I've always made it my, my, my mission [01:16:14] to make sure that, that whatever we were delivering, we were going to deliver it effectively. And then [01:16:18] I think, I think that, I think the biggest piece of trust is just getting on that, getting on the [01:16:22] same side of the table of someone else. Um, you know, there's lots of aphorisms about that, about [01:16:28] walking a mile in someone else's shoes. And then I like, especially like the Jack Candy one, because then, [01:16:33] um, when they want their shoes back, you're a mile away and you have their shoes and how are they [01:16:37] going to come chase you or whatever. Anyway, that's a weird Jack, Jack, Andy, deep thoughts [01:16:41] from Saturday Night Live from years ago. But, but really that idea of putting yourself in someone [01:16:44] else's shoes and, and, and letting them know that you're on their side and that you're in it together. [01:16:50] And then, and then really making it so that, so that that's true. So you're researching it together [01:16:54] and together you figure out what the gaps are between what someone wants and someone needs. And then, [01:16:59] and then helping them achieve that and helping them get to the next level. There's no better thing [01:17:04] than helping someone else get a promotion. There's no better thing than, than, than walking away from [01:17:10] a project at the other end of it and, and having, having your, your stakeholders boss, tell them that's [01:17:17] the best project that, that, that they've ever been involved with. Tell them that, that, that in that [01:17:21] project, they've proven themselves to go to the next level of the organization, man, there's no greater reward than that. [01:17:26] Yeah. I appreciate that Dave and sharing that, you know, I, I knew that was your mantra, but you know, [01:17:33] you're in rarefired air because you know, that, that mentality is not, does not exist. And, uh, [01:17:39] especially from an external perspective, uh, you know, having that all bought in that we're in this [01:17:44] together mentality is, is critical. Yeah. Thanks. And so sometimes that's not, that's not immediately [01:17:52] apparent. Like you, you don't, you don't always win upfront with that. And so it's, it's, it's [01:17:57] something that often you have to take, you have to take in faith and I'm a huge believer in faith, [01:18:01] man. It's, uh, it really does move mountains. And so if you'll trust the process and trust your gut [01:18:07] with those things, if you'll, if you'll focus in on people that are ethical and, and if, and if, [01:18:12] and if you're consistently ethical, um, in, in your personal and professional lives, it, it, [01:18:18] it pays dividends in the end. Just a quick room reset. If you just joined us, uh, we're joined [01:18:25] this evening by, uh, by Dave Glenn. Uh, he's been sharing a lot about his journey and his origin [01:18:31] story and a lot of good pieces of advice, uh, um, to help you in your career. So I encourage you, [01:18:37] if you just joined us to listen to the playback, once this is all said and done, uh, it's about 9, [01:18:42] 15 PM Eastern time. We're going to go for another 15, uh, 15, oh, ish minutes or so. [01:18:48] Cause we do have a few folks on stage. I do want to ask a question. So Jenny, [01:18:51] I'll pass it over to you. Hey everybody. Nice to see everybody. Hi Dave. [01:18:56] Uh, one thing I wanted to, one thing I wanted to say about Dave is, um, the one word I associate [01:19:01] with Dave is in encouragement. And I think, um, it's something that's so important, uh, with all [01:19:08] the people that have been in the, the cyber room, a lot of the folks in today is it's, um, it's a group [01:19:13] that's very encouraging. And I think with a lot of folks who, who are concerned about getting [01:19:17] into cybersecurity, that's the one thing I found in this community is it's very encouraging, [01:19:23] especially for folks like me who are not specifically in the technical area, but come in [01:19:28] kind of sideways into this, into this room. So I just wanted to thank Dave for always, [01:19:33] always being encouraging and his Friday room, the cybersecurity weekend review. It's definitely [01:19:39] a wonderful room. And I encourage folks to, to go into that on Fridays. But my question, [01:19:44] you, Dave, being in the risk area also is, you know, when you've done your presentation and you [01:19:50] have all the proof in the world of solutions that everybody knows need to be done and, you know, [01:19:57] they want to do it, but they just don't have necessarily, um, the interest just because of [01:20:04] triaging other things or, or necessarily the financial or other support to really take that [01:20:10] next step. Even if you're there to jump in the trenches with them, um, how do you let go in [01:20:15] those situations with even, even when you come back and you, you keep asking them, are you ready? [01:20:20] Are you ready? How do you kind of let go and not see it as a failure when you're, you have been [01:20:26] unsuccessful getting them to move to that next, you know, chess move? [01:20:33] Yeah. Jenny, um, you know, the measures of our character, thank you for the question. [01:20:37] The measures of our character are not what happens when we win the measures of our character [01:20:41] are what happens when things don't go our way. And, and I think, and I think that's, you know, [01:20:47] I don't always handle that real well, to be honest. Um, it it's frustrating to me when I can see, um, [01:20:55] a good friend of mine always uses the, the analogy that, that, um, he would, he would play Tomb Raider [01:21:02] with his daughter and he'd be frustrated. He, you know, he'd be sitting there trying to, you know, [01:21:06] trying to, uh, trying to find a hidden doorway or whatever. And, and, and his, his, you know, [01:21:11] his, his nine-year-old daughter would walk in the room and say, Hey dad, why don't you go through the [01:21:15] door of the tree? And for half an hour, he's been trying to figure out, you know, how to, [01:21:19] how to get to the next level. And it's always frustrating when, when you see, um, when, when, [01:21:26] when the way to go over an obstacle or through an obstacle is right in front of you and, and, and you [01:21:31] can't get the customer or your partner to see that it's a very frustrating thing. So I think for me, [01:21:37] um, the, my trite answer is you, you, you build plausible deniability for yourself by, [01:21:47] by forcing the, forcing your, your, your partner, your counterpart to accept the risk. And, and, and, [01:21:55] and then you say, I told you so when there's a breach, um, that's the, you know, that's kind of [01:22:00] the industry way. Um, I think it's become really important to me to help people measure, [01:22:09] um, gaps within their organization. And that's one thing that we, that we don't often follow all the [01:22:15] way through with because it's hard. Um, you know, the, the ability to assess a situation to, um, [01:22:24] measure, you know, measure the, you know, measure the, the, the, um, the, the risk and then prioritizing [01:22:33] that. And then after you do that, then start to remediate like, like that process. Um, people skip [01:22:40] by the, by the prioritization often, or skip by the measurement and they try to prioritize and [01:22:45] prioritize and remediate without that actually measuring impact of the business. And so I think [01:22:49] it's about changing the conversation. Um, the idea of risk is, you know, there, there's all sorts of [01:22:55] fancy, you know, equations about what risk is. Um, and, and, you know, one of my personal passions [01:23:03] that we didn't talk about at all today was, is, is my, I, I really have a desire to help young people [01:23:09] understand what risk is, you know, and, and for me, it's really simple. What's the best that can [01:23:15] happen? What's the worst that can happen? Um, and how do I make, how do I make a decision based on that [01:23:21] moving forward? And so I think, I think the, that measurement idea and then prioritizing based, [01:23:27] based on that measurement is what's really important. So when, when somebody, when somebody [01:23:33] says no, when I, when I can't get them to understand, um, I often feel as though that I, [01:23:41] as though I failed because, because I, I, I feel like it's, it's my fault because the communication, [01:23:48] if I would have been a better communicator, if I would have given them different results, [01:23:51] or if I would have, you know, if I would have tried to help them, um, you know, understand a [01:23:56] little better or whatever, like, like all those things kind of weigh on my, you know, weigh on my [01:24:00] shoulders. But I think, I think it's really, um, sometimes you have to walk away and say, [01:24:06] um, you know, I provided you with the data. Um, you have, you, you, you, you understand the reason [01:24:13] why, and for some reason we couldn't get your organization to, to see it. And sometimes it's [01:24:19] because people are reluctant to, um, often, often people are reluctant to take advisors into their, [01:24:25] into their leadership. And part of the reason why is there, they, they feel like if, if someone that's [01:24:30] more articulate than they are, or someone that has a better understanding of their business than [01:24:34] they do, or, you know, whatever, whatever those reasons are, it's because of feelings of inadequacy [01:24:39] on that person's part. And sometimes I think you have, you just have to give people a pass for that [01:24:43] because they've been burned so many times by a subordinate, you know, going around them and making [01:24:47] them look bad or whatever. So sometimes you just have to say, you know, this person is damaged and [01:24:51] that's the reason why, you know, I can't get them to, I can't figure out how to get them to [01:24:56] articulate it to their leadership and, and, and, and they're, you know, and they're too afraid to [01:25:01] put me in front of their leadership. Um, and, and sometimes you just have, you just have to [01:25:06] partner with, partner with them and say, Hey, I get it. You know, let's, let's get as much [01:25:10] information together. Let's, let's build the right compensating control for that. If we can, um, [01:25:17] let's, let's make sure the business knows the risk. And then, and then I think, you know, um, [01:25:23] I'm not above, you know, I don't like slimy salespeople, but I'm not above using fear, [01:25:29] uncertainty and doubt by, by leveraging industry stories. So every time there's a breach, [01:25:36] every time I hear about a breach, I try to think of someone that could benefit like, [01:25:41] like whether or not I'm doing business with MSI Churis or Kip Advisors or whatever. [01:25:44] Um, I try to think of someone that could benefit someone I've talked to in the last couple of years [01:25:49] that, that has reached an impasse that, that could benefit from hearing that story. And I try [01:25:56] to send them that story and I try to say, listen, you know, I, you know, I know we talked 18 months [01:26:01] ago about this and you were struggling to get your business to understand that here's an example of [01:26:05] someone that didn't take action on it and has, and has failed as a result of it. [01:26:11] That's great. Thank you. As always, Dave. [01:26:14] Thanks for the question. All those, all those great, great things coming from you. [01:26:27] Uh, I'm talking on mute. Tom, over to you, my friend. [01:26:33] Hey, Dave, how's it going? So I, [01:26:36] you and I talk a lot different rooms, different, you know, offline, everything else, sir. [01:26:45] One thing I've never asked you. Okay. You know, what was your biggest win and which [01:26:52] gave you the best feeling in all your years inside? [01:26:55] Wow. [01:27:01] My, the best, this, this is, this is a really silly one, but the thing that just popped into my head [01:27:07] is passing the 688 TCP IP test for my MCSE after taking it twice. Cause I didn't understand anding [01:27:13] and subnet masking. Um, that's, that's, that's probably my, my, my biggest sigh of relief, um, ever. [01:27:22] Um, for some reason I, I could not understand anything about IP back then. I mean, I mean, [01:27:30] I understand that I can, but I didn't really understand subnet masking and, and, and that was [01:27:33] a really difficult concept for me to get. Um, in all seriousness, [01:27:37] Like all of us feel old tonight. [01:27:41] Pretty much, pretty much. Uh, you know, that's kind of a memory lane thing for me. Um, [01:27:46] Um, you know, I, I think, I think that, I think that probably my biggest, and this, this is a really [01:27:54] selfish one, but my, my biggest win since being on the business development side of things, um, from an [01:28:01] individual contributor perspective was when somebody brought me a spreadsheet of the last 10 years of [01:28:07] business at the, at the company that I was at and showed me that between the two of us, we had impacted [01:28:13] over 70% of the revenue in the organization for the last decade. Um, you know, looking at that made me [01:28:19] feel, you know, made, made, you know, you, you, one of the things about sales is when you do well, [01:28:26] it's, you can understand what the measurement of it is measurement is in dollars. [01:28:31] And, and, and that, you know, that, that was a, that was a really good feeling. [01:28:36] Um, I think that, I think that my biggest win, and this is going to, again, going to be another silly [01:28:43] one, but there was a, um, and, and, and again, it's, it's just, it's one of those things that, [01:28:52] that, that it's, it just, that, so there was, and I'm trying to figure out how to say, how to tell [01:28:59] this story without, without sharing the names of the companies involved in the process. So, so let's [01:29:05] just say, let's just say that there was a, there was a particular industry segment that was, um, I was [01:29:13] working with Symantec's managed security services business. And so Symantec bought a company called [01:29:19] RipTech years ago, um, um, Amit Your N and Dub Your N. The Your N brothers were, were, were part of [01:29:25] founding that they sold it to Symantec. So Symantec bought at stake, they bought, they bought RipTech, [01:29:30] they bought a bunch of, you know, a bunch of different companies. Uh, they've had all tears, [01:29:33] they bought, they bought Bonte, they bought, anyway, they bought all these, all these companies. [01:29:38] And, and the, the consulting company that I was with at the time, CBI, um, we had really, we, um, [01:29:46] we, we'd looked at McAfee and we'd looked at Symantec. And, and at the time they were kind of two big [01:29:51] security behemoths that were buying companies and we had gone out to McAfee's partner event and it was [01:29:57] really cool. But then, and, and so we were down a path, um, we were on the advisory board at McAfee. [01:30:04] And then, and then we, we heard John Thompson speak and John Thompson had this mantra, 10 by 10 by 10. [01:30:11] So $10 billion with 10% of being in services by 2010. And, you know, and he was, you know, [01:30:17] he was this IBM executive, really polished guy, and he was going to do it by hook or by crick. [01:30:22] And, and we really became enamored of the story. So flash forward, um, there was a, there's a, [01:30:27] there, one of my, probably my best sales mentor is a guy named Jeff Lanphier. [01:30:32] And, you know, Jeff's, Jeff's, Jeff's a great technology salesperson. I've learned just a [01:30:37] tremendous amount of things from him about customer relationships. Uh, Jeff Lanphier and Joe Mara are [01:30:42] two, two kind of best salespeople I know. Um, but, but Jeff and I went after an industry segment together, [01:30:49] um, with kind of this big yellow bus story. And it was just a bunch of, you know, a bunch of [01:30:54] Symantec technologies working together. Symantec had this vision that they were going to get [01:30:58] everything in a single pane of glass, which, which is, that's a terrible phrase to say, [01:31:03] but they were going to, you know, they were going to make the single pane of glass solution. And, and, [01:31:07] and all these, all these technologies were going to work together. Well, Symantec managed security [01:31:11] services actually, you know, had a really strong solution. Um, they're, you know, great sock, [01:31:17] they had great, you know, great leadership, a guy named John Lanato from Rackspace had come over to, [01:31:21] to run the business and, and was just crushing it with, you know, nut promoter and, and, and really [01:31:26] doing a great job for customers. And, um, we, we, we started going after a bunch of business and we [01:31:34] were up against Dell SecureWorks and Symantec had a, had a, um, uh, an agreement with Sourcefire [01:31:42] where they would sell Sourcefire boxes. They would lease Sourcefire boxes as, as a part of their [01:31:49] solution, their managed security solution. The problem was they started losing deals to, to [01:31:53] SecureWorks because what SecureWorks was doing, because they were owned by Dell, they were take, [01:31:56] they were taking Dell pizza boxes and, and they called them eye sensors. So they, they basically build [01:32:01] the snort sensor on an eye sensor on this, on this Linux box that was, it was dirt cheap. You know, [01:32:07] we're talking about $500 as opposed to, you know, $15,000 for the, for the equivalent Sourcefire box. [01:32:15] And they were beating Symantec left and right. And, and, and this Symantec of us came really mad. [01:32:20] And he was, he was like, man, he's like, we're, you know, we're losing these deals. You know, how do we [01:32:24] fix this? So we ended up, we ended up winning nine different companies in a row, beating, [01:32:31] beating Dell SecureWorks at nine different companies in a row by taking Dell boxes, [01:32:39] wrapping them into the Symantec to manage security service business, buying Dell boxes and putting, [01:32:44] putting a snort sensor on them. Like we built eye sensors. So we, we built a solution to compete [01:32:49] with Dell SecureWorks and, and beat them nine times in a row. And, you know, went out and did the SOC [01:32:55] tours and, you know, showed them what we were doing. And I was, I was very transparent about the [01:33:00] solution. You know, I told people, listen, you know, this is, this is what Dell is going to tell [01:33:04] you. Here's what I'm telling you. You know, I'm going to use a Dell box. We're doing the exact same [01:33:08] thing as SecureWorks is doing with these eye sensors. And, you know, again, we won nine, [01:33:12] you know, seven figure deals in a row. As a result of, of, of doing something unique that, [01:33:21] that provided, I believe a better service for the customers and, and solve the business problem of, [01:33:30] I wasn't crazy about selling the source fire solution. Cause it was too expensive. I wasn't [01:33:33] going to sell the customer a $15,000 box and they could do it for, you know, for $1,500 tops. [01:33:38] And so that's probably the deal, the, the, the kind of deal setup that I'm, that I'm most proud of. [01:33:44] It's a great question, Tom. It made me think about a lot. [01:33:46] No, that's, thank you for sharing. [01:33:51] Thanks, Tom. Thanks for joining us this evening and asking a question. Matthew, over to you. [01:33:57] Hey, Dave. Thanks. Great conversation so far. Every time I talk to you, I get more impressed, [01:34:03] I have to say. So I appreciate everything that you've shared. My question has to do with basically, [01:34:12] if you went back in time, so you got yourself a time machine and you got five minutes with 17 year [01:34:19] old Dave, what would you tell him? What advice would you give? What would you tell him to avoid? [01:34:26] What would you do with that five minutes? [01:34:31] Ooh, man, that's a different room, Matt. First, first of all, I will stall by saying that [01:34:39] the feeling's mutual, Matt. If, if, if anybody wants to know about physical security and, and [01:34:46] disaster preparation, Matt's your guy. He's, he runs great rooms and there's always great content, [01:34:53] lots of great physical security and security general stuff. You know, just, just a really good, [01:34:58] a really good, just a really good person in general. If I had five minutes to go back and talk to my, [01:35:08] to my 17 year old self, I would say pick better mentors earlier. [01:35:16] Be intentional and take advice from people that you want to emulate, not people that you want to hang [01:35:20] out with. Um, uh, learn how to say no earlier, um, and understand the value of time. [01:35:36] Wow. That's awesome. Especially the learn how to say no earlier. I think that's something that [01:35:42] everybody in the industry struggles with. Um, not that we're a yes people, but, um, that it's always [01:35:49] hard to not have the answer or, you know, not, uh, not say yes, not take on new challenges. [01:35:56] So thanks for that. I think, I think those of us that, that truly want to help people in this [01:36:01] industry, we have, we have this desire to fix it. And, and, and when someone asks us, I mean, [01:36:07] man, I want to be the guy that helps fix that for sure. If somebody asks me for help, I always want to [01:36:11] give it and it can be exhausting to, you can't ever be all things to all people. And so [01:36:17] the faster you learn how to do those things, I think, you know, I think the better. And I, and I [01:36:22] think, you know, I think that there's, there's, sorry, there's one other thing I've mentioned. [01:36:25] And that's that, that's the other thing I would tell myself is you're not all that special. And [01:36:30] what I mean by that is the realization in your life, when you realize that, that, that you are not [01:36:39] the only person that feels the way that you do, you're not the only person that struggles with the [01:36:43] things that you do. You're not the only person that has the wins that you do and has the insecurities [01:36:47] that you do. When you recognize that and recognize it, that, that the people that you see sailing [01:36:52] through life that have no problems are just way better at managing their attitudes than you are. [01:36:59] And if, and if, and if you can change that one thing in your life, you can make a tremendous difference. [01:37:11] Matt, thanks for, thanks for jumping up on stage and asking your question. And you took my last [01:37:15] question, which is fine. That is quite all right. But that is a great question. And thanks, Dave, [01:37:20] for answering that question. Bez, over to you. [01:37:22] Dave Kuntz [01:37:33] everybody in the room because I was in another, another room or discord channel. And, you know, [01:37:42] it's, it's interesting talking to a, a very intelligent, different generation. And, you know, [01:37:49] you know, I sort of joked around and said, Hey, I made a joke about Al Gore, you know, [01:37:57] you know, claim he invented the internet and they didn't even know what I was referencing, you know? [01:38:01] Oh no. [01:38:02] Dave Kuntz [01:38:03] Yeah. But, you know, if, when I'm thinking about, you know, everything you are all talking, [01:38:11] you know, even for me personally, you know, Vint Cerf and Bob Kahn were like titans for me in that, [01:38:21] you know, they fundamentally, you know, architect or they're known as the father of, of the, [01:38:27] of the internet. And they made a reference to TCP IP. I mean, those two are the ones that got that [01:38:38] protocol going in six months. And they're not even baby boomer boomers. They're what they call [01:38:46] traditionalist, Swartz golfers, people that were born between 1900 and 1946. So they're both in their late [01:38:53] 70s, early 80s. And yet they had such an impact, you know, and, and the first webpage, think about this, [01:39:05] we're coming on the 32 anniversary sometime in August, that was written on a next computer, [01:39:11] remember the next computer that company Steve Jobs after he was fired from Apple. [01:39:18] And what happened to DEC? What happened to all these other companies that, you know, were titans in their industry? [01:39:26] Um, so I, I, um, I really appreciate being in a room with, um, you know, some OGs. So, um, [01:39:36] anyways, my question is, [01:39:37] Chronologically gifted is I think, is I think what you're trying to say, Vaz. [01:39:40] Yeah, I guess so. I like OG better. But anyways, um, um, what is, um, my question is around quantum computing. [01:39:53] Um, how does quantum computing affect cryptography as we know it today? And, um, what's the future [01:40:01] for cryptography and, you know, the CISOs and everybody in the security industry? What's, what's ahead of us? [01:40:14] Wow, man, you, you, you asked the wrong guy about this one. I'll, I'll tell you, I'll tell you, I want [01:40:20] to make two comments. Um, one is I want to, I want to back up for a second. And, and when you're talking [01:40:26] about OG stuff, um, for those of you in this room that are, that are not, uh, you know, Gen X and [01:40:32] earlier, um, and, and I'm not trying to offend any of you that, that are not in my generation or, or older [01:40:39] that, that perhaps know the answer to this question. But, um, if you really want to look at an interesting [01:40:44] story, look at the Palo Alto Research Center. Um, there, there, there is a amazing, just, just [01:40:54] incredible story around Xerox and, and their Palo Alto Research Center. Um, I, I would, I would [01:41:01] hazard to suggest that more than 50% of the technology that we use today as a direct, um, [01:41:07] origin in, you know, in, in those, you know, in those, you know, in those, you know, again, [01:41:14] Jack Oldman and, and, you know, and, and, and, and team. So, um, so can I interject there, [01:41:20] Dave for a second? Oh, that park. If, um, there is a great documentary PBS put out that's called [01:41:29] triumph of the nerds. It was years ago, but it is super good. And it talks about Steve jobs going into [01:41:36] park and against the product managers wishes. You're just saying, yeah, let them look at all this stuff. [01:41:44] Yeah. Ethernet, Bob Metcalf, Wi-Fi, the GUI, everything we know today, Xerox could have owned [01:41:52] the computing world, but they didn't see a future in it. They hired 50 of the brightest scientists [01:41:58] from around the world. Hey man, everybody needs a copier. Yeah. Yeah. [01:42:04] Anyways, go on. I love that story. The park, you, you historically that's significant. [01:42:13] Yeah, man. I, I, I just, it, it, it, it park bared referencing just in, in, you know, in, in, [01:42:19] in, in, and I'm, and I'm sure you would have brought it up. Had we talked longer that it, [01:42:23] it, it, it just is really interesting. Um, it's really interesting to, to, to do that, to do that dig in. [01:42:28] And, and, and for those of you on this call, and for those of you listening to the replay, [01:42:31] um, you, you really owe yourself, uh, looking, you know, looking into that, um, as, as to your [01:42:39] second question, quantum computing, you know, the only thing I can say is that it, it truly is a brave [01:42:44] new world. When we think about quantum computing, I think it's going to change a lot. Um, I think that, [01:42:50] I think that there are some interesting people on clubhouse, um, that are, you know, that are involved [01:42:55] in that, um, there's a, there's a Wells Fargo executive, Tammy, that, that, that I've been [01:43:01] talking to about, do, uh, um, she doesn't work for Wells Fargo, I don't think, but, but Tammy and I [01:43:06] have been talking about, about doing a room with some, with some folks to talk directly about that. [01:43:11] Because honestly, that's, that's an area that I don't know enough about. Um, there's getting [01:43:16] Dame Butzer that's on here a lot from, uh, he's got a company called hypersphere that are, you know, [01:43:21] that are doing some really good things with, with quantum computing. You know, I definitely think [01:43:25] it's going to be, it's going to be a big impact. And I think, I think this is going to be another, [01:43:29] this is going to be another one of those things where we look at it, you know, in, in, in 10 years [01:43:33] or 20 years or 50 years. And we realized that some of the greatest pioneers in, in, in quantum [01:43:39] computing probably didn't get credit for the things that they did or said or, or, or engaged in. So, [01:43:45] you know, I think, I think, I think that's a really good, I mean, it's a, it's a, it's a really good [01:43:50] thing to think about. Um, and it's something that, yeah. So yeah. So Tammy Fleming is going to bring, [01:43:55] um, Roger Grimes, um, uh, some other, some other folks, Dane Butzer, um, we're going to have a room [01:44:05] about that. I don't know if we're, if we'll do that in Tom's room on, on Wednesday nights. So, [01:44:10] you know, check out security mindset on Wednesday nights at six Eastern, um, check out cybersecurity. [01:44:15] We can review on Fridays, um, could, you know, could be on, on Matt's physical security room, but [01:44:21] we're, we're, we're going to talk more about quantum computing. Um, I'm, I'm a, I'm a, I'm a stranger [01:44:26] there myself. So, you know, I, I'm, uh, I'm, I'm just a student when it comes to that. So if anybody's [01:44:31] got some comments on that, I'd love to hear it. [01:44:37] Awesome. Guys, thanks for, uh, thanks for jumping up on stage and joining us this evening and taking [01:44:43] us down memory lane for some of, some of the things that I remember. Um, so look, it is, uh, [01:44:50] it is 9 41 PM Eastern time. Uh, I know we ran a little bit longer than we would normally run. Uh, [01:44:56] we try to get everybody out of here around 9 30 PM Eastern time. Uh, but the conversation has been [01:45:01] really great so far. So I will, I will start to, uh, um, uh, start to wrap up the room. [01:45:08] Just gonna move some folks down to the audience as we, as we make our way, uh, out. I want to just [01:45:14] make a quick announcement. So, uh, you may notice that we don't actually have a room scheduled next [01:45:20] week. Uh, that is because there are going to be a lot of moderators at RSA. Uh, so we actually will [01:45:27] not be able to, uh, to, uh, to accommodate the room. So I do apologize up front. I know everybody [01:45:32] looks forward to, uh, to these chats and we do as well. Uh, but we, we had Bob scheduled for next [01:45:37] week and, uh, Bob has been gracious enough to allow us to, to reschedule. And so I do encourage you all [01:45:42] to come back, uh, for that conversation, uh, with Bob in early July, uh, but we will be back the week [01:45:49] after next. Uh, so the week after next, feel free to join us back here. Uh, I'm looking for the schedule here. [01:45:57] It is the clubhouse moved the, uh, move the app around or the icons around. So the week after next, [01:46:03] so June 15th, we will have Jeff Pugh join us for a conversation. So please come back and join us on, [01:46:08] on June 15th. As I mentioned, uh, next week, we will not actually have a room, which breaks the streak. [01:46:15] We had a long streak going for, I forget if we're at 60 weeks or 70 weeks or so. Uh, but we had a long [01:46:23] streak going, uh, we've been going strong for over a year, uh, every Wednesday. So it's not because we [01:46:29] don't want to chat. It's because we will be, uh, at RSA. So look for us out at RSA. If you do make it [01:46:34] out there, I'm sure, uh, the mods that will be there, we'll be happy to see you and, and, uh, and have a [01:46:41] nice drink of water with you. Um, with that said, Oh, that's weird. [01:46:53] Josh Kaufman. Oh, okay. Personal MBA. I see. Yeah. I see. [01:46:56] What's up. Yeah. Sorry. I just wanted to post that link just for just, that was the guy I was [01:47:03] talking about earlier. Sorry. Yeah. No worries. I've, at some point I was like, wait, did we get [01:47:09] hacked? But then I see you update. No, yeah. That's actually a really good book. I agree with you, [01:47:14] Dave. I listened to that. Actually, I listened to that on a few months back. Um, and it's one that [01:47:20] I've played a few times, uh, cause it's really good content in there. Uh, for somebody like myself, [01:47:26] who only graduated with computer science degree and wanted to learn a little bit more about [01:47:30] business. Um, in any event, thank you everybody for, for joining us this evening. Uh, we do [01:47:38] appreciate your time and attendance and participation. Uh, again, if you're not a member of our fireside [01:47:44] chat, please click that little greenhouse on the top left of your screen. You can join our [01:47:48] fireside chat group, uh, moderators, uh, any final words before we, uh, pass it over to Dave? [01:47:56] Dave, thanks for carving out the time and appreciate the candid insights. [01:48:04] Yeah, totally agree. You spend the night with us this evening in, uh, in clubhouse. It's just been [01:48:09] amazing. Took us up every lane, inspired us to do better and to, to give back at every chance. So, [01:48:14] uh, for that record. [01:48:21] Well, I just, I just want to jump in and say thank you to all of you. I've learned something tonight [01:48:26] from everyone that spoke up. Um, I always do. Um, I value all of you and I, and I thank you so much for, [01:48:33] um, for your engagement. Tomas, thank you for holding this space. Um, I often listen to your replays and, [01:48:40] and learn something every time I will try to be here in person more often. And, uh, you know, [01:48:47] just, just, just really appreciate it. Please, um, connect with me on LinkedIn. If any of you have [01:48:52] anything that I can do for you, please don't hesitate to ask if there's a connection I can [01:48:55] make for you. I'm happy to do that and, uh, would love to learn more about each and every one of you. [01:49:01] So please do connect and, uh, and, and thank you to all of you that came out and supported this tonight. [01:49:06] Um, and, and again, Tomas, thank you for, for holding the space and allowing me the opportunity [01:49:11] to share here. [01:49:11] Tomas [01:49:07] Tomas [01:49:11] Tomas [01:49:36] Tomas [01:50:06] Tomas [01:50:06] Tomas [01:50:07] Tomas [01:50:08] Tom [01:50:09] Tom [01:50:36] Tom [01:50:38] Tom [01:50:39] Tom