Fireside Chat w/Lisa Beth Lentini Walker, CEO and Founder @ Lumen Worldwide Endeavors

Hello and welcome to our fireside chat. This is the replay and you got here right on time. So thanks for joining and thanks for being a member of our community. We hope you enjoy the rest of the show. We're joined today by Lisa Beth and Tinney Walker for an encore performance. I'm excited about this one today because we get to not only hear Lisa Beth's story, but we also get to dig in and lean in a little bit more on certain areas that we probably wanted to. The last time we heard you chat with us, Lisa Beth, maybe about, wow, it's been two years already now? I think so. I think it has been. It's been a little while. It's been a hot minute. We'll call it that. It's definitely been a hot minute. So look, if it's the first time you've joined us, we do this every month for about 90 minutes or so. We'll ask Lisa Beth questions for about 30 to 45 minutes or so, and then we'll open up for the audience to jump up on stage, raise your hand, and you can join the conversation, ask a question. Just very quick guard rules. Let's have fun. Let's have a good time. It's Wednesday. It's the middle of the week. It's time to let our hair down. Let's use this as an opportunity to really get to know Lisa Beth on a more private and I'll call it somewhat intimate level, if you will, to the extent of really learning about your journey and what motivates you and what makes you tick. Obviously, if there are questions about what Lisa Beth does for a living, feel free to ask those questions as well when you join up on stage. If you are a vendor in the audience, we do ask that you please don't sell us on your solution today, but tonight, leave that for another opportunity. Let's really use this as an opportunity to grow as a community and grow in our own specific areas of interest as it pertains to our personal journey. So without further ado, I'll go around the room. Lisa Beth will leave you for last. I'll introduce myself. I'm Tomas Maldonado. I'm the CISO for the NFL and my views and opinions are my own and do not represent my current or prior employer. So I'll pass it over to you, Russell. Thank you so much, Tomas. It's just amazing to be back. I love the community that you've built and we've come alongside to help support with and get to know other folks. I've been looking forward to tonight for so long, like for a long time and so eager to spend time learning more about one of our co-hosts, Lisa Beth and Deanie Walker. Hey, I'm Russell Eubanks. I run my own company, Security Ever After, work with IONS, work with SANS, do lots of cyber things and just so eager, so excited to get to spend this time this evening here with Lisa Beth. And I will say I'm very excited to be here to speak with everybody. I have been, it's been a while since I was in the hot seat. Russell reminded me it was back in May of 2021, which seems like, I don't know, was that like 24 years ago in a post-COVID era? But it's been a while. And as life does, it just constantly puts challenges and exciting opportunities in our path for us to grasp onto. So I'm excited about giving an update and connecting with everybody tonight. So why don't we just jump right in, Lisa Beth? Why don't you take a moment and refresh us on you and your origin story? And obviously you've got a lot going on since the last time we chatted, since 2021 when we started this journey. Did we start in 2021? We started in 2020. It's hard to remember the origins of the fireside chat, but it feels like we started so long ago. And at the time, it was a really great opportunity for us to stay connected. So why don't you refresh the audience on who you are and where, and what your origin story is and, and take us to where you are currently? Yeah. I grew up in the Midwest and when I was growing up, I always wanted to be an international business woman. That was what I wanted to be. I wasn't quite sure what that meant, but I knew that I liked planes and I liked going places and I wanted to go places and be paid to do international business woman. It was and I started out actually more in the legal path. I went to undergrad and while I was an undergrad, I really started developing an interest in the financial markets. And I did an internship with a brokerage firm and then decided to build a program for interns at that brokerage firm, which became very popular. And during that time I did self-study to become a registered representative. And I started doing all of this work with the markets and I knew that I didn't want to necessarily stay in the small town that I had been raised in, but I wanted to see what could happen as I continued to explore things that interested me. And I was going to become a business person originally, but when I took the GRE, they said, hey, you're actually really good at logic. So you'd make a good lawyer. And that's how I became a lawyer. I said, okay, let's take the LSAT and see what happens. And I decided to get my law degree and my MBA. And I wanted to be somebody who knew more about business than the lawyers and more about law than the business people. And so I did that and I went and got my law degree and my MBA. And at the time I was down in New Orleans and this was pre-Enron. So my classmates were all talking about going to Houston, working for Enron, working for Arthur Anderson, et cetera. And I decided I really wanted to get back to the markets. And I took this role with the SEC and it was, at the time it was, everybody just was shocked. They couldn't understand why I'd gone and gotten a law degree and a business degree and wanted to go work for the government because they didn't pay very much. And what good was time at the SEC going to be for me? But lo and behold, I went to the SEC right at the time when Enron and WorldCom and everything else was happening. And so they changed salaries for SEC attorneys at that point in time. And we got things like Sarbanes-Oxley, which has fundamentally changed corporate America. And so I was there for all of that. And I loved my time at the SEC until I decided that maybe it was time for me to spread my wings and go see what life was like outside of the government. And that's when I started at Best Buy. And Best Buy was one of the most incredible experiences ever. I love the company. I still love the company to this day. But I got to be the first securities lawyer in-house. And I also got to do a lot of other things like learn about sustainability, learn about foreign practices, start doing more and more things. And I was very fortunate that I got exposure to all these different areas because it led me to the role that I did next, which was the chief compliance officer of Carlson-Baginley Travel. Well, they were trying to deal with a bunch of issues with trade sanctions and embargoes, which at that time, not a lot of people knew about trade sanctions and embargoes. But now you hear about it all the time, whether it's with Russia or with a whole host of other players on the international scene. Anyway, I grew that function and then eventually took over a chief compliance officer role at Deluxe, which is a financial services corporation. And that's where I started having more exposure and more responsibility for compliance in a much broader sense, including some of the GRC areas. And that's where I got a lot of exposure to some of the third party oversight and working on SOC reports and SOC assessments. And I did that. And then eventually I decided it was time for me to spread my wings again and start my own consulting firm. And I was happily doing that until one day, and this is where we get you up to date on what happened. Until one day I had someone reach out to me for a maternity leave cover. And I was like, the economy is looking a little bit wobbly. I can help you out with this. And that maternity leave cover turned into where I am right now, which is, I am now the head of corporate legal at a fintech from the area called Marketta, which runs probably a lot of the transactions that you do every day. And I still am allowed to work with my consulting firm. So I feel like I have my cake and I'm eating it too, because the consulting firm has been wonderful and we have a great team and I get to do great work that I really like. And I also get to be the head of corporate legal at Marketta. So it is one of these dreams of a lifetime to be able to combine all the things that you really enjoy and be able to do them all at the same time. So that's where we are today. And it has been an exciting journey. And it continues to present lots of opportunities, challenges, interesting situations, new people, new places. So that's the big overview. Wow. That's fantastic, Elizabeth. And I was just thinking when we started this back in 2021, did you think we would be here still talking in 2023 doing these fireside chats? I certainly did not. But honestly, in 2021, when we were starting with this, I didn't know what to expect. I still don't know that I really know what to expect. But the friendships and everything that have been formed during that time have just been such a blessing. And it's been such a phenomenal opportunity to connect differently with people. So thank you for that, Tomas, because you really were the one who made all of that come together and continue to help make sure that this continues on and is a way for us to connect and give back to the community. I feel so blessed to be able to be a part of this with you all and be on this path together. I can tell you one of the things that I know I've embraced, and it's just hearing your journey, it's clear that you've embraced as well, is embrace change and opportunities and been able to take that, take those opportunities and turn them into really good opportunities, if you will. So I see that with this, I see that with the, with what you described in terms of your path so far. So with that, I'll turn it over to, actually, before we get to Russell, I do see Vijay. Vijay, you want to quickly introduce yourself? Hey, Tomas. Good evening, everybody. Lisa, glad to have you on stage again. My name is Vijay Bala. I'm the C-Soph of the Asset Management Business at Goldman Sachs. Thank you, Tomas. Back over to Russell. Thanks so much. Great to have Vijay with us. It's so amazing. Lisa Beth, your story, I was writing down like, wow, you did this, you did that, and you really are this international businesswoman, like you described earlier. And I love the tension you described between being the best at legal and being the best at business and striving to do that in your journey. It just makes me so happy. Now, there's something you left out, Lisa Beth. There's some things that you've achieved. And in fact, I'm holding in my hand this book. It just happens to have your name on it. This book called Raise Your Game, Not Your Voice. And I have to say it was amazing to, after getting to know you, and then you're like, oh, by the way, me and you and one of your co-authors are written this book. And I'm like, no way. Like, I know an author. This is awesome. And so I love that I've referred to that. I've actually put that, a reference to this in a SANS class that I wrote and recently updated. But one of the things I want, which leads me to my question for you, the first question, is I think about this idea of Raise Your Game, Not Your Voice, to be successful, to be better at doing business myself. Chapter six, it's got a title that's compelling to me. And I'd love to have you talk about it just a little bit. And of course, that title is The Right Message, Audience, and Right Time. I imagine you've had lots of scenarios in all of your dealings, your legal dealings, your business dealings, your now head of legal and a fintech dealings to be able to communicate to folks in a way where they can best understand and is most appropriate to them. I'd love to hear any tips for advice or how you live that out. How do you live out chapter six, Right Message, Right Audience, Right Time? Oh, I love how you wove the book into there. So I will tell you, I'm going to take just a minute here because I didn't talk about what I think my greatest role and responsibility is, which is I have four kids who I love to the ends of the earth. And that is my number one job and responsibility is making sure that they grow up to be amazing adults who contribute to society and are a benefit to this world. But you're right, I did write a book. I wrote a book with my dear friend, Steph. And we wrote it because we came at problems from a very different perspective. Steph is a communications person. I've got this kind of a legal business bent. And if you've ever worked with lawyers before, the lawyers always want to say, don't say anything. Keep it close to the vest to say as little as possible. But the communicators, they're naturally wired to want to give every detail. So there is this natural tension there. And what Steph and I found was that if you work with the best attributes of the other party, you can come up with solutions that you would never have imagined of on your own. And we found, Steph and I, when we worked together, we were working on really just some really interesting things, everything from plane crashes to real tragedies, to volcanic eruptions, to like all sorts of disruptions, right? And when we worked together and really brought that level of respect and listening to the relationship, we came up with great solutions, collaborative solutions, because we really got each other. And the chapter that we wrote on right message, right audience, right time, it, it's so critical in everything you do in your relationships with your special person, in your relationships at work, at any organization that you're a part of, whether it's one that you work for or one that you're voluntarily a member of. And it's really about when you have the balance of what you want to convey versus what your audience needs to hear, and what benefits them, you always have to side on the side of your audience. Because if I always ask the question, if you are screaming in the middle of the woods, is anybody going to hear you? No, if you're there by yourself, nobody's listening. If a tree falls in a wood in the woods, does it make a sound? Nobody cares because nobody is there to hear it. Finding the right message and right audience and right time is so critical. Because unless you are connecting with your audience, they won't bother to listen to what you're saying, we are in a world that is filled with so much noise. Breaking through the noise means that audience has to come first all the time. And it also means that you can't make the mistake of thinking that the virtue of your message is what's going to carry the day. Let's be honest, nobody cares what your priorities are and objectives are unless it becomes important to them. So you can tell them all you want. Don't click on those phishing emails. But until they understand why it's important for them and what it means for them, they're just going to ignore the message as extra noise. That's why we have that chapter in the book. And it's one of the ones that I just have to constantly remind myself of because we all want to say something. The problem is like, we need to make sure that whatever we say is worthy of being heard and is going to be incorporated in the way that we want to get the behavior modification or whatever we're looking for out of the things that we want to say. I love that. And just as earlier, you talked about the tension between being excellent at law, excellent business. It makes me think of this tension between what you said, the things that you want to convey and communicate versus the things that the audience needs to hear. I love that. That resonated super well with me. I really appreciate that. Vijay, over to you. Thank you, Russ. Lisa, I feel like we've known each other now for close to a couple of years. I think that's right. I still learn new things about you, which is pretty amazing. I'm going to do a little bit of a different twist. A couple of quick questions. One, obviously, your job is taking you in multiple different unique directions. Cybersecurity is a place that, I mean, changes so rapidly. How do you keep in touch with current evolving trends? Oh, that's a tough one because I feel like no matter how much reading I do, it's still hard to stay on top of all of the different changes. So one of the things that I do is I really like attending conferences when I can. And also, I'm a voracious reader. I like connecting with people after I've read articles that they've written. I try to connect with people as much as possible to get the deeper underlying story behind whatever they were thinking. And so the way that I stay connected is by just being that voracious reader being really curious all the time. So I try to be learning stuff from everyone I speak to. And generally, I do learn things from every single person I meet, whether it's the barista at the Starbucks or it's the person that I'm sitting next to on a plane. I've had great conversations, questions, and then I continue to ask questions. That's amazing. My second really quick question is, you've got four kids, right? Yeah. What motherhood traits has contributed you to be a great CISO leader? Other than multitasking. Multitasking is, that's important. I think one of the things that has been helpful as I've become seasoned as a parent, we'll call it a little bit more seasoned as a parent. With my first child, everything was, it felt like every decision was so important, right? Do you get the wipe warmers? Like, how often do we make sure that we buy new bottles? Everything felt like it was so heavy, and so critical to get right and everything like that. I think one of the things that helps most is being able to prioritize and decide which things are the things that cannot be dropped or messed up, and which ones are decisions that are relatively easy, right? One of my friends calls this, is it a glass ball or is it a bouncy ball? And as we're all juggling all the balls in our lives, it's really important to know which ones are the critical decisions. There's no going back. And there's really important weight to that decision versus the decisions that are the two-way doors where you just can decide, I think we're going to send this kid to this summer camp. And if it doesn't work out, then you go to another summer camp. As long as there's healthy and safe, that's fine. But also, like, in business, I think that's a really important thing to do, is to understand what are your critical decisions and which are the ones that you can revisit and then, if necessary, fail fast and move on. So I think that's the superpower that comes from managing through lots of different competing objectives and figuring out quickly, assessing quickly, what is the most important decision, whether it's the decision that's one for five months or five years or five decades, right? Love it. Love it. Thank you so much. Glass ball versus bouncy ball. I'm going to borrow that. I like it. It's one of those things that I remind myself of often because it just works. It works for me. Love it. Love it. Hey, Tomas, back to you. Probably time for the room reset. Hey, thanks, Vijay. I think we're good. We can keep going. Elizabeth, are you back in the office working or are you remote? I am still remote 100% of the time for both my jobs, which is interesting, although I am doing way more travel lately than I have been. That throws off my question, but I will twist it a bit then because I wanted you to reflect on, maybe I'll ask you this question. When you think about your career, how you started, where you, I'll say you were probably looking for opportunities more so than opportunities looking for you. And can you speak about how important it is to be not only open to exploring new opportunities, but to being prepared to embark upon new opportunities? And really where I'm going with that is reflecting on the opportunity that you have now where you sort of went in to fill up the vacancy because a person was going on leave. And now you've been able to turn that sort of temporary role into more of a permanent role for yourself. And so if you could just reflect on the aspect of always being prepared. I love this question because one of my favorite quotes is, fortune favors the prepared. And I learned that lesson quite well over time. One of my dearest friends is an opera singer. And one of the things that happens for male opera singers is their voices don't really mature until they're much older. So they spend years and years working in smaller venues, et cetera, as their voices mature. And it's not until 20 years after they finish college or more that they're ready for prime time. And I asked him once upon a time, isn't it frustrating having to go through this and know that your voice is just still maturing and there's nothing you can do about it? And he told me, no, like this is all the work that you do so that when it is your moment and you don't know when that moment will come because it's not entirely up to you. When your moment does come, though, you need to be prepared. And all of the work that goes into it beforehand is what puts you in the position to be able to rise to the occasion when it presents itself. And I always keep that in mind because that's been the story of my life, too, is just. Whenever there were opportunities, even ones that were outside of my current knowledge. It was always about how do I get the other information that I may not have and what has everything to this point in my life prepared me for. And I feel like if you really take a learning mindset and you focus your energy on just constantly being curious, then you're always prepared as well as you can be and likely more than others who are similarly situated for whatever that next opportunity is. And likely, more likely than not, you will learn something new there. There will be a challenge because if you're just doing the same old jobs, same old, you're not challenging yourself enough. I wrote an article that's going to be published shortly, which was about the fact that even if you are very prepared, there are going to be times when you experience rejection. Rejection is a sign that you are continuing to strive and it is actually a redirection of your energy saying this is not the right opportunity for you, but something else is and it may just be waiting. I think that everyone, as they continue in their careers, needs to make sure that they continue to prepare themselves for what we know is going to be an uncertain future because none of us could predict what's going to happen in the next two months, let alone two years. And when people ask me, what do I want to be when I grow up? I still, I'm not sure because I don't know what job opportunities will be available and I don't know what will be floating my boat in five years. I have a really hard time answering that question, but I know what I will be. I will be curious. I will be constantly learning and I will focus on opportunities that really make me happy with the life I get to lead. Love that. And I like to think of it like if you're always constantly being ready or staying ready, you never actually have to get ready because you're there already. That's a play on radio. So look, just a quick room reset. If you've just joined us, this is a monthly fireside chat. We're joined with Lisa Beth Lentini-Walker, who mostly as one of our regular sort of moderators and on this fireside chat, but she is now in the hot seat. So the spotlight is on her. We're having this encore performance because when we started this in 2021, we actually didn't record those sessions. So there were several sessions that we did in 2021. We used to do this on a weekly basis. Remember that, folks? We had weekly guests. That was during the height of the pandemic. And we were all yearning for that level of connection with our fellow colleagues in different industries and different parts of the U.S. and in the world, for that matter, for some folks that have joined us from international waters to be guests on our show. So if you just joined us, we'll ask Lisa Beth a few more questions for about 15 more minutes or so. And we'll run to about 930 Eastern time this evening. So in about 15 minutes, feel free to raise your hand and we will queue you up. You could come up on stage and ask your questions. So with that said, I will pass it over to Russell. Thanks so much, Tomas. It is hard to believe it was a weekly thing and it was always a labor of love for each and every one of us. And I'm just mindful of all the folks that we've had on stage and here coming back in full circle and capturing this conversation right now. Lisa Beth and Tiddy Walker are just so incredible and just so many fond memories of meeting and connecting and learning and the stories we've heard from this community of people growing, getting promotions, having opportunity. It's just getting inspired. It's just been so incredible. So earlier, Lisa Beth, you mentioned the idea of some learning, being curious, staying ready. That reminds me of a quote John Maxwell said. He said, sometimes you win, sometimes you learn. And I thought that idea, you didn't exactly say those words. But to me, when you were saying what your response was to those questions, I thought, yeah, that's exactly right. That's that leadership perspective. My question, and I have to admit, I don't know a lot of folks who are legal and compliance and running their own company. How does the different roles that you've had make you better? Like how does, because you're familiar with law and a lawyer, how does that make you better at business or better at compliance? And it's almost like this connected web, if you will, of all this expertise you have. How does that help you be better whenever you step into the arena as a lawyer, step into the arena as a business owner, step into the arena as a head of legal at your organization? How does one feed off or contribute to the other with your training, with your experience? And love to see how those play with each other, play together. That's a really interesting question. And like the way that I look at this, everything that you learn has brought you to the point that you're at today. And everything that you're able to contribute is based upon your experiences. And I'm an experience junkie. I want to have lots of experiences. I want to have lots of exposure to all different sorts of things because those are points of connection and points of revelation, I believe. I'll give you an example of something that most people wouldn't think has any bearing on anything that I do. When I was starting my business, one of the reasons that I wanted to be able to run my business was I felt like there was a really strong need for someone or some organization to bring true thought leadership and support for compliance, ethics, risk professionals. Because I saw so much burnout. I saw burnout amongst the people that were doing these roles, particularly amongst the information security professionals. And my question was, why are we seeing this and what can I do about it? And I've always taken the approach of if we see something and there's a problem, how can we contribute and make it better? And so I decided that I needed to know more about burnout. And I decided I needed to know more about why different professions were experiencing this differently. So I became a certified, a national board certified health and wellness coach. And I went through that course of study to figure out how do I safeguard myself and then how do I help other people in the profession? And what I learned from that were a lot of lessons around how we interact with people at work and how you can use techniques from different disciplines like psychology, etc. To be more effective at the jobs we have. And that's part of the reason that I put a lot of those concepts into my book. A lot of what we think we know is based on what we've seen other people do. But we often haven't incorporated insights from other professions to help us be better at what we do. So when I think about all of that together, how do these things play together? They play together really well because all of these different experiences allow you to have different perspectives. And all of these professions are in this, particularly the compliance, risk, ethics, governance, information security. We're constantly in and out of each other's areas, right? We're all in the general, what I would call the guardian professions, where we are trying to help organizations be better, do better, help the individuals within organizations make better risk-based decisions and understand the landscape. And so having these touch points in this information and these different perspectives, all it does is create an area. It's like having fertile soil, right? It creates an opportunity for growth and an opportunity for ideas to take root because you bring to the table these different perspectives and can help bridge professions so that we understand each other better. I got to say, that's brilliant. I named off a bunch of things like, wow, you're this and that and the other. And then you're answering my question and you give me yet another one of being worried about burnout, being a coach to help yourself and help others to just iterate on and show that evolution of how you're able to do this. I love how you answered my question of complexity with a little bit more complexity and based on needs and things that you've seen. Just love that so much. I really appreciate that. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, absolutely. With that, Vijay, I'll turn it over to you and look forward to your questions. I was going to take a quick moment to see Katie online. Katie, you want to do a quick intro? Katie, you there? All right. All right. All right. While we wait for Katie, Lisa, quick question, right? So you're in the legal and compliance space. You can't go one day without talking about ChatGPT, right? There's a lot of chatter these days on the legal aspect of how efficiency for lawyers, but also hallucination with respect to cases. But my question to you is, how do you think generative AI is going to impact the compliance world? Wow. That's a big one. I like the comment about hallucination with the cases because I think that was actually very interesting. Coming up with your own cases, which is something that ChatGPT did, which is why lawyers have to be very careful about making sure that they're checking their sources and everything like that. Look, I think that generative AI and ChatGPT hold a lot of promise, right? But with promise comes responsibility, right? If we look at, and this is almost like Peter Parker, Spider-Man reference here, with great power comes great responsibility. I think that's where we're at. What we have is a tool that we don't know fully how to use. It's not particularly refined yet. It's going to get there. But one of the things that, you know, keeps me up at night or that I worry about is that we have a tool we're not very good at using. We don't know some, like all of the downsides to the tool. With anything generative AI, machine learning, deep learning, et cetera, there are certain things that we need to be worried about. We need to be worried about whether there is truth and accuracy in what's being generated, which the example you gave was an example of where there wasn't truth and accuracy in the output. We need to be worried about bias and syndication of bias because that is something that all of the material that's being ingested to be able to come up with things through ChatGPT means that there's inherent bias in there. And so we need to be really thoughtful about how the technology is used, how the oversight of the technology works. And also we have to think about use cases that are appropriate, right? I do believe that it's going to be a lot easier to do some of the very administrative manual work, manual searches, things like that through the use of the technology. But we're not quite there yet. And we need to be able to figure out what the parameters are and how we make sure that there's proper oversight and governance of everything that's done so that we don't become lazy and complacent and lose that curiosity and questioning of the results. Love it. Love it. Thank you, Lisa Beth. Kitty, you there? I am. I apologize. I'm driving. I was getting onto the highway in the construction zone in Chicago. So it's harrowing. But thank you for letting me join late tonight this evening, everybody. Thank you for the chance to even say hello and even to share the stage with Lisa Beth and T.D. Walker. I'm so excited to have been able to join late. And even in the first couple of seconds, the things that you were covering were things that I was just covering in a business discussion that I was coming from. I'm Katie Hannigan. I'm one of the co-moderators and have been a part of this group for a couple of years and a deputy CISA now as of today. Everybody. So thanks for letting me interject and say hello. Is it my turn? Do I get to ask a question as well? Yes. Okay. Lisa Beth, you know that you're one of my, honestly, just personal heroes in this industry. And as a woman who's written a book, and I hope you didn't cover this already, I think that process is really interesting to me and others who maybe are more technically focused or people in the cyber industry in general may not be the best at to articulate something in something as long as a book. What is that like? People sometimes refer to it as giving birth to a book or what is that? How did you work with your partner to write that book? And could you take it? Did you already go from kind of beginning to end of that process for you? We didn't. So it's a good question. That was one of the questions I was just, we hadn't really covered it as much as I would love to understand what that looks like for somebody from inception to actually being able to put a book out and do that. And I don't know, four minutes or less. Go. Just kidding. No, I'm just, I'm just so impressed. And also the best title in the world. I would love to know how you came up with that as well. Thank you. So it wasn't the original title. But I'll get to that in just a second. But writing a book was, it was a little bit trippy. It was one of those things where I, it was on one of my things that I wanted to do in my lifetime. And I talked with my co-author and we, she had also wanted to write a book. And I said, we should write a book together. And the picture on the back of the book is actually a picture that was taken at a women's event before a single word had been written. We were at this women's event where they were taking headshots of everybody who wanted a headshot. And we turned to the photographer and said, hey, why don't you get our author shot? The confidence that we had at that moment, not having any idea what it was going to take to write a book. But I'm glad we did take the picture. It is gracing the back cover. And it was before we even had an outline for what this was going to be. But we basically started out with an outline and we outlined the chapters that you see today in the book. And then started talking about what collateral we would have liked to have had when we were working together and what would have made this easier. We wanted to create something that was like a roadmap for people who didn't have a Steph or a Lisa Beth in their life. And so that's what we did. And we worked with a publisher who is fantastic. And it started out with us basically saying, okay, today I'm going to write a page or today I'm going to deliver a chapter. And Steph and I would, we split up the chapters and we set out deadlines. And honestly, if I hadn't had Steph, I think it would have been very different if it was just me writing a book by myself, because then I would just be accountable to me. And sometimes I am guilty of not being as accountable to myself as I probably should be or not as accountable to myself as I am to others. But because I had Steph waiting for the chapter, I really pushed myself and she did the same. And we talk about this because oftentimes the most important work that we do is not the most urgent. And so sometimes it will get lost in the urgency of today and the busyness of today. But when you have these deliverables and you have somebody else who's counting on you, it made it easier to make sure that we followed through. And the whole process from start to finish, like to finish that meeting, having a book in my hand was about 18 months for our book. And it's been just a lot of fun. We've been working with teams throughout the country and throughout the world delivering speeches about this book and the concepts in it. We've been doing workshops with companies like AT&T and the Home Depot. And we're going to be talking with John Deere later in the year. And it's been just a lot of fun. And we get to meet some amazing people because of this book. So that's what it took to get the book to people. And I still have on my bucket list that I would like to have an audio book at some point in time. And I know Tomas has asked me many times for an audio book. So that's still on the list. I just hasn't gotten to the top of the list yet. Anyone would be lucky to hear your voice reading your book. I have read your book and I've actually I have underlined anyone who's out there. It's Raise Your Game, Not Your Voice is the name of the book. You can find it on Amazon. And I suggest everyone order it today and read it a couple of times like I did. I don't think you got to the point where you told us what the original title was and why you changed it to Raise Your Game, Not Your Voice. Oh, my goodness. The original title, I probably shouldn't reveal the original title because I think it may end up being a title of a different book. Fair enough. But this was not Raise Your Game, Not Your Voice was not the original title. And it was our publisher who changed the title and helped us find the new title because he thought it would resonate better. And I'm glad that we did change the title. But there's still some books that are left in me, but it's not time for them yet. And I've got a couple of other ideas in my notebook. Anybody who has ever wanted to write a book, regardless of whether it's about something professional or personal or a fiction novel, I encourage you to keep a little diary or whatever of your thoughts, because sometimes those thoughts about what you might want to put into a book end up really manifesting. And having that little notebook with you that you've written things in can be really helpful. Or maybe go get your author photo shoot done before you write the book. It sounds like you manifested that way as well. That is probably another way to start doing that. Thank you. Back over to you, Tamas. Love it. Love the conversation. Thanks for joining us, Katie. I know that you're driving, so please drive safe. Look, if there's anyone in the audience that has a question for Lisa Beth, feel free to raise your hand. There's a little icon on your screen, the phone or laptop, but you can click raise hand and I will bring you up on stage and you can ask the question. Lisa Beth, what are you reading these days? Or do you even have time to read now that you're working your full time and still have your side passion? To be honest with you, I still read all the time. I read all the time. Although I'll tell you, my latest obsession, my latest addiction has been crossword puzzles. And I was never a crossword puzzle person until recently. So when I'm not reading, I've started doing more and more crossword puzzles. But I'm reading a number of different things right now. I'm reading some new compliance books that have come out. One of my friends just wrote one about hacks and ways to boost your compliance program. I am reading a book that is interesting called The Wisdom of the Shire. It's a short guide to a long and happy life, which is based on the wisdom of hobbits. So if you like to geek out on Lord of the Rings type things and you are interested in happiness and how to have a life that you really enjoy, that's a good one. I'm also reading a bunch of stuff about embedded finance, believe it or not, because that is something that I'm spending a lot of time and energy on. So I want to know more about the power of the swipe and different ways that we're seeing embedded finance manifest. So that's on my reading list. So it sounds like a good selection. I don't know how you find the time, but wow, that's just impressive. We do have someone that wants to ask you a question. So I'll pass it over to Jordan. Jordan, thanks for joining us this evening. Anything you want to ask Lisa Beth? Yeah. Hey, Tomas. Hey, Lisa Beth. Quick question. This is more related to a work-life balance question for you. So also got four kids ages 15 down to eight. A wonderful wife who also goes by a double name, funny enough. And just wanted to get your thoughts as a cybersecurity leader. I've been in this field for almost 20 years now and a lot of leadership roles and stuff. And how do you find ways and what are some tips maybe you have for the group here on ways to have work-life balance as a parent of four kids in a cybersecurity leadership role? Wow. That's a good question. And one that I'm particularly passionate about, actually. I think that you can have everything you want. You just can't have it all at once. And so trying to find the right balance is something that if you want to really focus on having a happy life, you have to constantly be attentive to what balance you're trying to strike. There's always puts and takes. For me personally, what has been really important is making sure that I've got quality time with my family because it's not always quantity time because there are all these other demands. So the quality time is really important for me. And one of the things that was really important to me and always has been important is travel. So because I have a remote set of jobs, I was able to spend a month this summer working in Switzerland. And my whole family was there with me. And it just meant that my days looked different than they do in the United States because my colleagues, clients, et cetera, were on a different time zone. So what my day looked like when I was in Switzerland this summer was I would get up early. We would go to the farmer's market. We had an amazing time. We'd have breakfast and lunch together. And then at about, you know, two o'clock-ish, one o'clock, two o'clock was when I would turn on for work, right? So that's when I would be focused on work. I'd still have dinner with my family, but it would be a shorter dinner. And I would be working into the evening. And then we would do it all again the next day. And then on the weekends, I would have that time with my family in a different part of the world. And that was the balance that I found that worked for me and for my family. And everybody's balance is going to be different. I think that one of the things that we start to get in a habit of if we're not careful is this comparison of looks like this person has this and this. Never compare. Never compare. It is 100% the thief of joy and you end up misconstruing what somebody else's life is based on your own biases and your own perceptions, which are likely wrong. Find your happy. Find the things that fill your bucket and what make the people that you care about and you whole and in harmony. And then do you, right? Everybody's answer is going to be different because we're all at different stages. We all have different preferences. We all have different demands on our time and energy and different histories that we're dealing with. I think that one of the best things that you can do if you're looking for your own balance is figuring out, A, what's important to you. B, how do you make sure you get more of what you want and less of what you don't. And then design your life to be what you and only you want it to be, right? And that incorporates the things that you care most about. But it's going to be a different answer for everyone. The one thing that I would caution you against is don't live your life by design, not by default, because there's always going to be things that are demanding your time. But if you let the groups or people or projects that are the loudest rule the day, then you're not actually designing your life and you're not actually probably attending to the things that are most important to get you to where you want to be. I hope that answers your question, Jordan. Absolutely. Wonderful advice. Thank you. Thanks, Jordan. Thanks for joining us this evening and asking your question. Russell, I'll pass it over to you. Okay, Lisa Beth, I got to say, my pen's about to run out of ink. The things that you said is by design and not by default. Find your happy. Any comparison as a thief of joy. Wait a minute. Good thing we're recording this. This might be like the first chapter of your next book, just the words that you've just spoken in response to Jordan's question, which, wow. I feel like I'm ready to go take on the world and go to Europe and work at a different hour and do different things just because of where you've taken us in this and just a response to that question. My question to you comes around the area of compliance. Some people, I won't name names. I won't point fingers. I'm certainly not going to accuse you of this, Lisa Beth, but some people will think of that compliance as, I've got to do that. I have to do this because someone makes me do this. And it's hard for me, generally a positive person, to have this grumpy voice about myself asking this question. How do you turn the frown upside down when someone has a bias or a certain view that compliance is out to get them? They're not partnering with them. Just some of the negative connotations that surely you run into and maybe you've bridged the gap with. How do you confront that? How do you help folks see it for more than just a check-the-box type of exercise? It's a good question. And honestly, I think, let's be clear here. Everyone who is in what I would call a guardian role for an organization, whether it's information security, your human resources, legal, finance. This is not the crew that people race to and start raving around when they walk into the holiday party. We have roles that require us to say no to some things. We have roles that require us to set up frameworks and expectations. And look, nobody wants to be told what to do. Most two-year-olds will tell you, you can't make me. Right? We're in this unenviable position of having to be groups that help to set standards and enforce those standards when it comes to behavior within organizations. But what I think that we all have the opportunity to do is we come into organizations and many of them have pre-established biases about, oh, this person's from HR. They're clearly not here to help. Or, oh, this person's legal. Better not tell them what we're doing. Or, oh, this person is in compliance. They are going to be the most boring person I talk to in my life. Or this person's an information security professional. They're a geek. Right? There are all these biases and there are all these put-downs that come with the roles that we have. That said, I think one of the things that I am so proud to be associated with everybody on this call, because I know that you all already do this, is we have an opportunity to provide a differentiated experience. And we have an opportunity to do that in a very human and humane way, which makes people connect with us and makes people want to help. Because really, at the end of the day, everybody wants to do the right thing. But oftentimes, people don't know what that right thing is because it's not necessarily intuitive. And they feel more comfortable asking questions if they're talking to someone that they view as a human and somebody that they can connect with. And so we have the opportunity to make our profession accessible. Make our profession easy to understand. Make it easy to comply. And make it something that allows a person to derive pride in their behaviors and their contributions. And so it's connecting those dots to make people understand why they're doing what they're doing and how it actually helps what they're trying to achieve, which is very likely success in their lives, success with the business, etc. We all have the same objectives. It's just we go about it a little differently. Wow. Just wow. Seriously, I had to change out pins. I ran out of ink. That's just beautiful. I love the response of how to do that. I just say do better. But it's almost like a roadmap of bridging the gap that you outlined there. I love that so much. Vijay, over to you, my friend. Thank you, Ron. Elizabeth, I'm going to ask you a different question. What's your question about the return to office chatter that we see in the news a lot? Right? Obviously, there's a lot of talking points on both sides of the aisle, right? Like the commercial real estate crisis, the need to work closely with your colleagues. What's your personal take, especially with you starting a new job? Yeah. Look. By the way, did Thomas give the usual disclaimer that all our opinions are just ours? All of our opinions are completely ours. They don't belong to any organization that we belong to now or in the past or in the future. Good. Was that caveat for you, Vijay? No comments. It's for everybody. It is interesting. And I will tell you, like, where I live in, in the Twin Cities area, and I've been reading the newspaper a lot here. And there has been a strong push for one of the largest employers in the Twin Cities area, Target, to force people to come back downtown because they have big offices in downtown Minneapolis. And without all of the workers that would normally be in those offices, a lot of the support services, like the restaurants, the shops, the... All of the barbershops, all of this stuff, don't have sufficient foot traffic. Return to work or whatever you want to call it, return to the office. We never stopped working, of course. It has been something that a lot of organizations are really struggling with. I think organizations that originally were designed from the start to be remote only are faring much better because there was no expectation that people would be sitting there. together all the time. And they have focused on the tools and techniques to connect and collaborate that are less readily available or maybe less used by organizations that have historically relied on proximity as the culture carrier. I think, personally, there's a lot that I miss about being in community with my coworkers. Does that mean that I want to race out and spend every day with my coworkers again? No, it does not. I found that I can do a lot of things and be a lot more present in a lot of different ways with having a flexible first, fully remote position. Still, I think travel is very helpful to see people and to actually be in the same place at the same time because you do cultivate, I think, deeper relationships when you have the ability to just sit across the table from someone and connect with them. I don't think that technology has quite gotten us there, but it is getting better every day. But I do see that there are some organizations, and I see this because of the work that I do in consulting, that are really struggling to bridge the gaps that have continued to expand during the more heavily remote era. And one of the things that I do see as well is the level of understandings and mistrust have increased because of some of the remote work. I think that it's easier to mistrust somebody that you don't have to see every day, and it's easier to have greater chasms in understanding when you're not eating lunch with the person that you're having a conflict with. So I think there are some strong reasons that some companies are saying, nope, we're going to be back in person, and we don't want people out of the office. But then there's equally strong reasons to say, hey, we can get talent from a much, much larger talent pool. And there are ways to keep us connected and to keep us moving forward. So I see both sides. I think it's going to be very organization dependent as to what's going to work for each organization. Love it. Katie, over to you. Thank you. Hopefully it's a little quieter. I'm finally off the highway. Sorry about the noise in the car. But I'm really thankful I have another chance to ask a question. So, Lisa Beth, you covered a lot of things that are business psychology intertwined today. And I'm not sure. Where does this acumen come from? Is this from formal training? Or is it your upbringing? Where does this gift that you have for understanding how to take the human condition and business and have a conversation about the two? Yeah. Interesting. First, I will say, I have always been a person that experiences a lot of empathy. So that's just the way that I've been. It's very easy for me to tell if somebody is distraught or having a bad day and it's a little bit infectious. That's just naturally the way I am. But some of the techniques that I learned were from this national board certification in health and wellness coaching. And there was a lot of emphasis on how to connect with people and get them to do things that they otherwise wouldn't do. So when you think about health and wellness coaching, it's really about helping people make decisions to prioritize and emphasize living longer, healthier. And we all know that there are certain things that you can do that will positively impact your health. People with diabetes know that they cannot overindulge in many things and that they have to constantly be watching their carb intake and what their insulin levels are. But actually making choices to address that proactively is hard because food tastes good. And it's a lot of extra work that many other people don't have to do. What I learned from being in that program was what I think is really helpful for our profession, which is a lot of times you have people who want to do the right thing because it's good for what they want in terms of a long-term outcome. They want to be in terms of a long-term outcome. That may not lead to longer, more successful business runs because they're the easier answers. They take less effort. And so I think we can learn from professionals who focus in different disciplines, whether it's medical, psychological, et cetera. We're all trying to answer the same basic questions. How do we get people to do what is good for them, what is right for them, even when it is not easy for them? And that's what I see every single day. And I'm sure that you see it every single day, too. We have to understand our audience and make sure that our audience gets what they need, which is going to be information that's not going to be easy but is critical. And we have to help make it easier for them to put the critical actions in place and make sure that those are sustainable for them so that they can do what they need to do to make sure our organization or their life or whatever it is, is the best that it can be. Yeah, thank you, Lisa Beth. And I think that the other piece that I took from that is that, first of all, it doesn't surprise me at all. I almost said it seems like you're a lot of an empath. Takes one to know one. When I asked my question, I didn't want to call you out. So I appreciate you saying that because I do think it's interesting about we talk about transferable skills. We talk about the talent gap a lot in our industry as well. And I think that recognizing those things in our colleagues, in our industry, recognizing those different attributes in our employees and the people we are leading, and being able to actually apply some type of acumen like you have, I think that was the step that I'm focused on. And so you mentioned the wellness piece. Are there any other, just in terms of who you follow, are there other leadership? You mentioned a couple of books that you're reading. Are there any other leadership books or things for people who are in our industry and leadership positions who are maybe struggling in this area, who maybe aren't natural empaths and are trying to figure out, why does my employee care so much about their kid's soccer game or whatever? Are there resources that you would suggest that they would go to help them bridge that gap? Oh, yeah. I think that there are some really good resources out there. I also am a big fan of listening to podcasts from time to time. One of my favorite ones is the Happiness Podcast, which is from, I think she's a Yale professor. It's Lori DeSantos. And she's really interesting and talks about some breakthroughs that they have been doing in her little lab there. I'm also really focusing in right now with work on development and what development looks like at different phases and stages. So right now, I'm about to start reading some more on kind of development techniques and what it takes to build resilient teams. One of my favorite books in this space is one called Multipliers, which is a really fascinating book about how to build the best leaders and make everybody smarter. So that's one of my favorites. I like, I always go back to Strength Finders because I think that's a really good resource to understand what people are bringing to the table. And the fact that we need to have a very diverse workplace. And that means diversity in thoughts and kind of an orientation in terms of how you understand the world around you. So those are some of the things that I spend time thinking about and doing to try to keep myself up to speed on what's happening in terms of management and team building and developing people and making them feel included and like they have community and opportunity. So great question and one that I'm really excited about and working on right now. Thank you. Yeah, and I'll definitely re-listen or ask you so I didn't get all of the titles while I was driving. But thank you for that, Lisa Beth, and appreciate it. Tomas, over to you. All right. Thanks, Katie. Thanks for that wonderful question that you asked, as always. Hang on. There's someone that does want to join the stage. Hey, Christina. How are you? Thank you for joining us this evening. And do you want to ask Lisa Beth? Hi. Good evening, everyone. Thank you, Tomas. And thank you, Lisa Beth, for your fantastic insight so far. I've actually just added that Multipliers book to my Amazon cart to check out right after this call. So thanks for that. I did have a question for you about just what your experience has been around the push and pull between the technical side of cybersecurity in terms of, like, the techies and then the compliance ethics and kind of governance side of cybersecurity, right? We're all one big team. We're all one big team. But sometimes we tend to separate each other. And there can tend to be some push and pull and disagreements. So just wondering and just curious, as you've navigated your career, what has your experience been in that regard? And how have you been able to cross-functionally collaborate and bring everyone along for the ride? Oh, that's a good one. And actually, it reminds me of a conversation I was having earlier this week, actually. It's very easy to put yourself in a camp if you have not experienced and lived with the other side of the camp. And so one of the things that I'm working on right now as part of development for some of the people on my team is making sure that they're getting exposure to different disciplines. Because human beings, by our very nature, we like belonging, but we also like having belonging and outsiders. And that's actually not helpful in organizations, nor is it helpful when you're trying to accomplish things within a function. But that's the way we work as human beings. It was a tower wired because when there is scarcity, you need to have an in-group and an out-group, and the in-group gets fed and the out-group doesn't. And we are wired to affiliate ourselves quickly with like-minded people, with like-skilled people. But we need to be careful, but we need to be careful about making sure that when we are a team, we act as a team. And so having exposure and being able to have walked in the shoes of the other side of the house is really helpful in leaders and in team members. And so I'm always looking for these opportunities for people to either shadow or provide support in areas that are not natural collaborating areas. Because I think, A, it makes people a bit more well-rounded. B, it allows us to collaborate and communicate more effectively. Because if you speak my language, then I'm going to understand what you're saying. And in order to speak someone's language, you have to spend a day in their shoes. So that's what I would say to that. Yes, there are some natural tensions, but the more cross-pollination that there can be, the more connecting points, the easier it is to get over those bumps and be able to be more effective and more thoughtful and proactive in how you're dealing with these situations. Thank you so much for answering. Thank you for asking such a wonderful question, Christina. Thanks, Christina. Thanks for joining us this evening. Russell, I'll pass it over to you. Thanks so much. I just love these conversations, the questions that come in. And I had a couple of questions lined up. And then just a moment, I was like, oh, no, I was going to ask that. Lisa answered it. It was like this idea of shadowing your peers. How do you keep up your growth mindset? Gosh, I think to be able to follow Lisa Beth on a typical day, I don't think I could keep up. I think I would just like, OK, that's pretty cool. It's just a whole new realm. And I appreciate that. I admire that so much about you, Lisa Beth. What's when you working on issues? What's something that you wish a common problem that you see or challenges you face where folks maybe feel like it's overwhelming and it's too difficult? But thanks to your guidance, thanks to your advice, thanks to spending the last hour and a half with us here. Maybe you can kind of talk them out of or help them see a better path. Do you have any examples of where folks feel like they're overwhelmed and can't do the thing they need to do and then maybe through some advice or guidance or maybe even experience and expertise like you've had, be able to walk them through showing the art of what is actually possible? Oh, that's a really interesting one. I don't know that anything that I've said or done necessarily makes a difference for any one person. But I will say, like, when I'm feeling overwhelmed or I see somebody else who's feeling overwhelmed, I always go back to, is this something that has never been seen before on the planet Earth? And the answer is typically no. This is something that someone somewhere else has dealt with at some point in time. And then the next question is, did they survive it? And the answer is generally, yes, most things are survivable. And so after that, then we start talking about what skills can we bring to the table? And if it's something that you've never dealt with before, that doesn't mean no one has ever dealt with it before. It just means that it's your first time. And look, there are plenty of things that have been a first time for me, and that can feel really overwhelming. And I think that when I go back to having children, the first child, the first time you have to change a diaper for your own child, even if you've changed diapers before, it's a little overwhelming. It's a little, it's a new experience. And with every step that you take forward from that point, things do become a little easier. And so when I'm faced with something overwhelming, and I go through the questions, I also start with, when we're eating an elephant, we start with the first bite. And even if it's just the first tiny little attempt at a bite, that's forward motion, right? We have to make sure that we don't get paralyzed with the fear of the unknown or the fear of what could be around the corner. And we have to just slowly but surely start down the path of doing the next right thing. And then after that, you do the next right thing after that. And eventually, you just keep on doing the next right thing after the next right thing after the next right thing. And eventually, you're someplace different, and you've learned an awful lot. Probably the time that I felt most out of my comfort zone was when I started a job at Carlson Violently Travel. And I had been in a house, securities attorney, and everything else. They wanted a chief compliance officer, and I had exposure doing different compliance programs. But they were facing a potentially existential risk to the organization, and this is all public. They had 98% of US and military travel as one of their lines of business. And they had a violation of trade sanction law. They were selling travel to Cuba. And it wasn't being sold from the United States, but for a whole host of reasons, the international subsidiaries had suddenly come into scope. And they were selling trips to Cuba from Germany and France. And having violated the law, they needed to fix everything. And they needed to fix it fast because the government contract was going to be up for renewal. And it's not a really good look if you've just been violating the US law and you have a federal contract. I had never dealt with OFAC and trade sanctions before. I knew how to build a program, but I hadn't done it in that area. And what I did was I took what I knew, which was how to build a program. And then I got really deep on the areas that I didn't know. And I worked really hard to get up to speed quickly. And I always think back on that because it's a time where I felt out of my depth in many respects. But the core is there and the core is, can you learn? Do you have the energy to be able to put in to becoming an expert in that area that you need to have expertise in? And can you connect with other people? And as long as you have all that, you'll be fine. Even when you feel out of your league. Even when you feel like you don't know what you're doing. Even when you feel like you're overwhelmed. I would just tell anybody, is it the first time anybody on the planet has faced it? No? Okay. Is it the first time that you're facing it? Okay, yes, it may be. But you can learn and you've shown that you can learn and you're going to keep on learning. And this is just another opportunity for you to show that you're great at being adaptable and at learning everywhere you go. That's so incredible, Lisa Beth. I love the fact that you're able to weave in a actual application of that. Not just inspiring, but showing that little formula, a little checklist to go through. Did anybody die? Is everything okay? Is everything okay? Have we done it before? And just looking at that and using that fresh view, fresh perspective to help overcome maybe some of the emotions, some of the fear, uncertainty, doubt. And then be able to maybe see an alternate path or an alternate way that's in integrity. I just love that so much. Yep. Yep. I really appreciate that. Sure. And that was, I like that question and I like your answer, Lisa Beth, so much because that was a really good reflective question, which is what I wanted to conclude today's session with. So I'm not going to ask you that, but I will ask the moderators if there's any other questions that they want to ask before we start to wind down for the evening, if you will. So Katie or Vijay? It's been a wonderful evening. Thank you again, Lisa Beth. It was so great to be able to hear more of your story tonight and being a co-moderator with you and now a friend is just a wonderful thing. So I'm really glad that more people now will be able to hear your story. Thank you, Katie. Thank you, Katie. I think Vijay is whining down with his little one. I'm here. Oh, you're on? Okay, there you go. Yeah, I'm not as good at multitasking as Lisa, but getting there. She's got four kids, Vijay. You're halfway there. Exactly. Just 50%. Lisa, this has been an absolute delight. Again, just amazed at how we continue to learn new things from you. So thanks again for the phenomenal evening. Thank you, Vijay. Lisa, anything that we didn't ask you that you wanted to talk about? Oh, there's one thing I will talk about. Okay. I have been doing some reflecting and I keep on asking myself, what is it I want to be when I grow up? And what do I want to be doing in three to four years? And the answer I keep coming up with is, I still don't know because I don't know what the options are going to be. And I think that I'm okay with not knowing. I'm okay with not having a linear career. I'm okay with not knowing. Knowing where I'm going to be living in three to four years, or what my life will look like, because I think it makes it more exciting. I think it makes it more exciting because there are so many more possibilities of what could be. And I hope that everybody has the opportunity to design what their future looks like. And has the opportunity to be open to the fact that it could be something very different than what you think that linear path is. So that's the one thing that I would say is that it's okay to not have a linear path. It's okay to take a detour. It's okay to be doing something fundamentally different than maybe even you were trained for. And sometimes it's better that way. That is one great piece of advice. And I think it's a great way to end our segment this evening. Lisa Beth, thank you as always for your willingness to be part of this community that we've created and to continue being part of this community that we've created as a moderator. And thank you again for taking the time to sit and answer questions of us or from us as a guest on the show. So I'm looking forward to, to one, getting this, getting this on our website, which if you haven't checked us out, it's firesidechat.live where you can catch all the prior recordings. As I mentioned, as I mentioned, we do this every single month. So we'll be back next month with, with another guest, but wow, what a great show this evening. Moderators, any final words before we kind of wrap? Keep rocking this, Beth. Thanks. Yeah, I can't top what Lisa Beth just said that's still resonating through me. So thank you, Lisa Beth. Thanks, Katie. Thanks for having me here tonight, everyone. And thanks to Moss for pulling us all together and making sure that we continue to have some really great chats and stay connected in this really complex world that we're working in. Absolutely. And congratulations, Katie. Yay, Katie. Thank you. Yeah, it's nice to be employed again. Thanks, guys. All right. We'll see you all next month. Bye.