Fireside Chat w/Nicole Darden Ford, Global VP & CISO, Rockwell Automation

Hello and welcome to our fireside chat. This is the replay and you got here right on time. So thanks for joining and thanks for being a member of our community. We hope you enjoy the rest of the show. We have a really good treat for you this evening. We have Nicole Darden Ford who's the global VP and CISO for Rockwell Automation joining us this evening. Before we get into the conversation with Nicole, why don't we just go through a quick sort of guardrails for the conversation. If it's the first time you've joined us, we do this every single month for about an hour and a half or so, usually on a Wednesday. And we have a great conversation with our guests, really focused in on their journey, their origin story, more about the personal side and their professional side and their sort of rise to where they are today. So if you are a vendor in the audience, we're happy to have you participate and be part of the conversation. Feel free to join in and raise your hand and we'll bring you up on stage and ask questions. But we ask that you please don't sell us on your product or solution. Let's save that for another time, another place, another date. For the most part, our comments and opinion are our own and do not represent our current or former employer. So we please ask that you do keep that in mind as we go through the evening. If you do want to quote us on something, feel free to ping us afterwards, let us know. And I'm sure the different co-hosts will have nothing but good things to say if you're going to be taking them in context. It's the middle of the week. It's Wednesday. Let's have a great time. Let's have fun. This really uses as an opportunity to get to know Nicole a little bit better. So we ask that you please join the conversation. With that said, I'm going to go around the room. We'll leave Nicole for last. I am Tomas Maldonado. I am the CISO at the NFL. Katie, over to you. Hi, I'm Katie. And I'm a cybersecurity strategist, former virtual CISO. I'm currently in transition. So I'll let you know in the next month or so where I, my current employer is. But so for now, I'm a current or former employer I'm concerned about. These are actually my words. So I have to be really careful today. BJ. Thank you, Katie. Hello, everyone. I'm I'm here responsible for Internet Security for the asset management division at Global Tax. Steven, over to you. Hi, everyone. I'm Steven Garcia. I am currently on hiatus, much like some of the folks here. Some of you will know me from my former role as vice president of cybersecurity ref handle. Left that position in February. I am still on some boards doing my advisement work. Looking forward to today's conversation. And as Tomas mentioned, all comments are strictly my own. Octavia, what are you? The VP CISO for Equifax Canada. Again, my comments are my own and I'm happy to be here. Hey, Nicole, how are you? Hey, I'm good. I'm good. I'm Nicole Darden Ford. I'm the Global VP and CISO at Lackawad Nation. Happy to be here. And we're happy to have you. So Nicole, usually I like to start off the conversation by asking the question of our guests. And in this case, that is you. So why don't you take a moment and you can take as long as you like? Why don't you tell us about you and your origin story? Oh, wow. Okay. So I grew up in Northern California in the Bay Area. I, both my parents were in the military. So they're originally from Detroit. And by way of the military, that's how they actually got to California. And so I grew up in the Bay Area, near the San Francisco, in San Francisco, Oakland, and a little town called Vacaville, which stands for Cowtown in Spanish. So, you know, I was a product of a, you know, both my parents worked and I had a brother and a sister that I grew up with in the Bay Area. I had a lot of friends, but we moved quite often, right, because of being in the military. And so I found myself in, in Vacaville, kind of growing up with lots of friends and, and going to school, I played basketball in high school and served in, in student government and really thought that I was college bound. And I was, but when you're kind of an overachiever, I think sometimes you get a little burnt out. So I made a decision in my, in my senior year to forego college for a few years and actually go into the military, which is interesting because that was the same path that both my parents had taken. My mom had been at University of Michigan, but, you know, back then she, she followed my dad into the military. So it just seemed like a path that they didn't want me to follow. They wanted me to go to college, but seemed quite reasonable to me because that's what I lived for so long. So I went into the military and spent a few years there working for the Joint Chiefs of Staff. I actually worked in an underground skiff in a mountain mountain. And imagine being 18, 19. And you, you don't quite understand what you're there to do, right? But you know that it's super important. And most of the time I spent in a, in the skiff, really working through top secret messages, sending them from place to place. I was responsible for some of the biggest mainframes that federal government had some of the newest technology that they had at the time. Um, and that was a huge responsibility for me because, you know, number one, you know, going into a mountain every day, um, not really kind of understanding how the government worked right. Other than being in, um, kind of in AP government, kind of why understanding some things around how the government worked. It was, it was very eyeopening for me to kind of understand, you know, how things worked. And, and, um, I didn't understand at the time that I was at the beginning of technology too, right? Like it was a decision my dad made for me to go into technology. I wanted to be a linguist. I thought that was the coolest job ever. Um, I wanted to learn Farsi and, you know, didn't really understand the implications of that. So I remember coming home and saying, Hey, this is what I'm going to do. And my dad was like, no, you're not. He said, I heard about this, uh, new industry, uh, called technology, I T. I think you should do that. And, you know, because he was in the military and he had all of these, um, connects, he went and, uh, positioned that as my role, which is crazy, right? Imagine trying to be an independent, right? And your dad goes in and makes a few phone calls and all of a sudden your, your job is in IT and you have no idea what that means. Um, so it was a lot of firsts for me and, you know, not really understanding the impact of, of that decision on the rest of my career, um, moving forward and, and how that really kind of set me up to be a C-cell later on in my life. Um, so I didn't want to kind of go on with the rest of my life. I thought maybe if you guys have any questions, I can open it up. Yeah, no, that's fine. No, look, Nicole, first and foremost, thank you for your service. Which branch of the military were you in? I was in the army. In the army. All right. Yeah, right. Hardcore, hardcore. And that, I think that's what, uh, what, what the army folks say. I'm not going to dispute that because I was not in the military, but my dad was a Navy veteran. Uh, so I am sure that, uh, every branch of the military has its own sort of, uh, challenges and, and opportunities. Um, with that said, I will pass it over to Katie over to you. Katie over to you. Hi, welcome, Nicole. Hi, Katie. Good to see you. Um, so you left off at a really interesting place for me. Um, you know, you talked about how you had, you know, dreams of being a linguist, your father, you know, made some phone calls, um, to, to help you, uh, to get into the, I love the way you've been positioned that the, this new thing called I, IT. Um, and, you know, I would love to know those, you know, you just kind of left us off with that's what set you up to be a CISO. Well, a lot happened between then and you becoming a CISO. So I would love it if you continue the story and just help us understand what those first few years for you looked like from a military perspective. And then if you could even get into how you transitioned out of the military into industry, I think that'd be a really interesting piece of your story to share tonight. Yeah, that's a, that's definitely interesting. It was always my, um, you know, my goal to go into the military, do a few years, um, and go to college, right? Because they were giving out the army college fund and that was, you know, I wanted to make my own decisions as it really, to what college I want to go to and so on and so forth. So it gave me that opportunity. Um, and like I said, being in, um, you know, this underground SCIF, having to make these key and critical decisions every day, you grow up very quickly. And, um, you know, IT was still, like I said, relatively new. I remember having, um, to actually create an encryption key, right? Using a KG84. I had no idea what I was doing. And I remember, um, sitting with one of my superiors and him walking me through how to do that, right? I'm like, what is encryption, right? Why are we doing this? Right? And so it was, it was all of these questions that I had and, and didn't quite understand until later what I was actually doing. And, um, being in that field, having a, you know, a top secret security clearance, um, I didn't realize how new IT was, but I did know I was getting all of these calls from recruiters. Recruiters were calling me left and right. And they were saying, Hey, listen, we really want you to come work for us. You've got this role for you. And I was like, well, I'm not sure I know what to do, but here's what I, here's what I do every day. How would that translate into a position? Um, cause my goal was, Hey, I'm going to get out and go to college. I'm not even going to worry about a job at that point, cause I really didn't need to. Um, but you know, because of the work I was doing, I actually took a role with the department of the Navy, um, uh, one of their, uh, program offices building, um, destroyers or destroyers for the 21st century and, and really supported, uh, that program office, um, after leaving the military. So, you know, I'm, I'm in the military and I'm probably making like, I'm making peanuts because, you know, military personnel, we don't make a lot of money, but we have these big jobs. And, um, you know, when they told me what I could make, I was like, Whoa, you know what, you could be a contractor and you can make, uh, you know, this amount of money. And it was, you know, almost at the time it was close to six figures. And I was like, I have no degree. I'm trying to understand this. It didn't make sense to me, but you know, I went with it and I got out of the military, um, a couple months early, took a job and, um, started going to school at night just so that I could, um, complete my degree. And so that was, again, I mean, Washington, the Washington DC area, which is like heavily government, uh, still, I'm probably at this point, I think it was like 21, 2021. So I'm very young. And yeah, that really kind of started my career at that point. And that's when I started to kind of figure out, uh, what this IT, IT thing was. And that was bigger than, uh, what I believed or even what my father believed at the time, right? He had heard somebody gave him a certain advice and said, if you can't get your kids in IT, it's like the way of the future. That's all he knew. Um, and again, you know, coming from an African-American background, you know, my family, um, we're African-American at, we didn't, that was not, um, a path for us. Like most of, um, my family at the time migrated up from Mississippi, uh, to Michigan, to Detroit, and they worked in the auto industry. That was like big back then. So, you know, my dad going into the military was like deviating from kind of the family structure and what, uh, our family thought, um, the kind of trades and, and, and roles that our family took. And so, you know, this was just yet another kind of veering away from, from that into a field that was really relatively unknown. And the future wasn't, you know, there was, I really, I really didn't understand the future of IT at the time. So yeah, it was, it was definitely interesting. So I, uh, worked for the Department of the Navy for a few years, which was fun. I really learned a lot. Um, and like I said, then I was like, at that point in time, it seemed like I didn't really have to look for a job because I was heavily recruited from that point forward and, um, took a role actually in the private sector, which was my first private sector role. I worked for Ajo USA, which they own grocery stores on the Eastern Seaboard. Um, many kind of, you know, stop and shop, I own, um, different, um, grocery stores. And so that was my first time in a, um, organizational setting where I was, you know, supporting the CEO and his staff. And I was an IT manager, um, which was big, right? I got a chance to sit in meetings and kind of understand how organizations grow, um, and what a growth trajectory for a fortune 500 company could potentially be. So that was like my first kind of foray into, um, how businesses are run and, uh, being at that level with C-level executives really helped me understand what it meant to be, um, a leader and really kind of impacted my career substantially. I, they were moving to Ajo USA or, uh, Royal Ajo actually moved, um, to Connecticut. And I didn't want to move from DC. I really loved being in the DC, Maryland, Virginia area. So I went to work for Department of State Diplomatic Security shortly after that, um, which was really fun and an interesting time that was during 9-11. So working for the federal government again, right? I found myself back. Now I'm, um, a federal employee and I'm working on key initiatives like information sharing for Diplomatic Security and some of the other three-letter agencies. And that was the first time that we implemented like an enterprise service bus. This is a kind of at the time of service oriented architectures. And, um, I found myself as an enterprise architect really helping to develop those new solutions. And that was really fun and really helped me understand how do we tie things together, right? How does information flow from one agency to another? But it also showed me some of the the fractures within the federal government and the opportunities, um, to help drive change. And that was a really good time. This is, uh, when Colin Powell was, um, head of the State Department and meeting him was pretty amazing, right? He's a great leader. Um, and then Condoleezza Rice came in shortly thereafter. So I got a chance to meet her as well, but also learn about diplomacy and how we handle things across the United States. And so when we talk in cyber about like what threat intelligence is, right? It started it, you know, and it starts with the federal government and all the work that they've done to really make it so critical to all of the work that we do. If you're a CISO, it's kind of critical to your ability to be more proactive. Um, but I learned kind of firsthand what it meant to be, you know, uh, a threat intel analyst or intel analyst and how to gather information, um, about your adversaries. So I'll stop and pause there. So hopefully I answered your question. It's definitely some interesting terms. I found myself kind of always doing something for the first time, right? And that was interesting to me, right? I was a lot of first for me, a lot of first for my family. Um, and you just to kind of, you know, I'll kind of fast forward, right? So because of that path, like all of my brothers and sisters are in technology. My sister's a chief technology officer, um, and my two brothers are in cybersecurity as well. So I really, I didn't understand back then. I was a little bad, right? I wanted to be a, I wanted to be a linguist. I wanted to do international business and have cool assignments. And that was not kind of my calling. And as a result of taking this divergent path, um, it really kind of laid the foundation for, uh, the rest of my siblings. Yeah, no, you absolutely answered my questions and, and, and filled in, you know, some of the gaps that, you know, we had from, you know, aspiring linguists to, to see. So, and you mentioned a couple of things that I think were really impactful too, is, you know, just even your opportunity very early on to, you know, be working and sitting in on meetings, having a literal seat at the table with the CEO and the staff and understanding what's driving a fortune 500 business. Um, it definitely connects the dots, you know, significantly on how somebody can take their, um, whatever background they are and then take those opportunities as they come to just continue to keep leaning in and learning. And wow, I mean, being able to spend time with Colin Powell and Condoleezza Rice at all in one's career, uh, let alone early on is, is pretty incredible. So yeah, thank you for expanding on that. Um, and, uh, then I'll, I'll turn over the, the floor to Octavia, uh, for the next question. Thank you again, Nicole. Awesome. Thanks Katie. Hey Nicole, how are y'all? Good, good, good. Hey, you said, um, you said a few things that was interesting to me. I think it's interesting that, um, that when you listen to your dad, um, which most people don't do when they are in their, um, 18, 19 year old, um, self trying to go through and you listen to your dad and you, you, he said, you said something about, you know, IT being the wave of the future. You've been, you've been kind of in the technology field for a while. Um, even before it was been in security before it was cyber. I'm wondering, you know, what do you think the new wave of the future is? And, and what would you say if you had to tell your children what they needed to do? I think knowledge is key, right? So, and we always talk about data being key and we can kind of see, uh, these innovations kind of colliding, right? We see a lot of innovation, right? Think about it. Like chat GPT is intelligent enough to perform a role very similar to a human. So we have to think about how we use human capital a little differently, uh, moving forward, right? I think it, we should really train our kids on being thought leaders, right? With the ability to, uh, well, number one, learning agility, because it's really important for them to, to, to know that their career is going to change over time, that technology has impacted the way in which we do our job every day, and that will continue to happen. And so being, um, you know, having various skills, uh, being more skill oriented, um, understanding how technology can impact a whole industry and change it significantly. And we've seen it, think about it, right? Um, and I'll just, I'll use the fact that I'm at Rockwell, so we're a manufacturer. So when you look at like manufacturing and the changes over time, um, to smart manufacturing, um, to smart manufacturing and manufacturing 3.0 and 4.0 has changed significantly because of technology and technology, technological advances. And so we're going to continue to see that. So when I'm talking to people about what the future looks like, it it's, you know, technology continues to change over time in a rapid pace and we'll continue to see that. So being able to change and work with technology is going to be very important in making sure that you're in a relevant field. Of course, my, one of my sons and well, actually two of them, uh, will, will be in technology. My daughter, not so much. She was, uh, she likes fashion and, um, entrepreneurship. So, um, she is taking that path, but, um, um, she's a critical thinker and she's looking and exploring ways in which she could have, I would consider like multiple streams of income, you know, not just being a buyer for a fashion house, but also, you know, um, dressing or learning how to style celebrities and so on and so forth. So she's looking at that today. And when you think about it and you look at even your kids, hopefully, you know, most of us have kids, you look at the way that they think today and the career opportunities they have today that didn't exist, you know, jobs that didn't exist. We're, we're talking about like, uh, being a social media influencer doesn't exist, right? Social media is, is what maybe 10 years old. And now all of a sudden people are making millions of dollars being a social media influencer, but think about how many people, um, had to believe that that, or have the faith that that role, right? Cause they were the first would turn out the way it did. Like it's, it's just, it's just pretty incredible. So making sure your kids are kind of thinking about opportunities differently and recognizing that their career may change a couple of times during their lifetime is, is pretty critical. So I think what we'll continue to see is, and especially in our space, right? I feel like artificial intelligence kind of gets this bad rap. It's always been around, right? It's been around for years. And we, and I always laugh because I always think about Terminator, right? And we, we've all watched the Terminator movies and said, oh, that's never going to happen. But it kind of did, right? It's, we're kind of on our way, well on our way there. And so if we're not careful, um, you know, we, and we don't put the right guardrails in place, of course, those technologies could potentially take over. But if we are careful and we're being very thoughtful, then we put the right guardrails in place and we use it to our advantage. And I think CISOs have an opportunity to look at AI as an enabler, right? Because of the challenges we've had with, with getting skilled professionals in the, um, in our industry and, and how we think about moving the needle in that area of getting people to do this work or getting AI to help assist with that work or some use cases that, um, kind of would be relevant in helping advanced cyber where we're not always looking for, you know, the skilled personnel, but maybe some of the systems and the tools and the automation, uh, could be used. So I see that automation will continue to advance. Um, you know, I do believe that, you know, that I, I, I love cloud and I see what we're doing with edge and all these really critical things are making, um, compute happen in a much faster rate. Um, but I, I see some of that changing over time, right? Because, um, we're now starting to put guardrails around technology and in a, in a, in a more meaningful way. And I think that that there's going to be some impact there. So love the emerging technologies and so much so that, you know, I am spending a lot of time with startups, really advising them on their technologies and things that they need to think about and how they can advance some of their solutions. And I think that that's super fun. Love doing that work. And it's helped me kind of understand, um, that we have so many overarching challenges, like CISOs have to play in the space a little bit more to help shape the technologies of the future. Now that's awesome. Um, before we go forward, I want to make sure that we're, uh, we do a quick room reset. So this is the fireside chat. We are on with Nicole Darden Ford. She's the global VP CEO at Rockwell Automation. Um, as we, you know, continue to do this, we are now doing this monthly. We used to do this weekly, but we are doing it monthly and we are, um, we're going to continue to go around and ask Nicole questions and then we will, um, open it up to the audience. So yeah, Nicole, that's, I think it's really interesting, um, how we kind of pivot over into, um, into just the innovations that's coming and, and how we continue to, to kind of look at what's gonna, what's going to come in the future. You know, as we, as we're doing that, you know, if you, and I'm going to take a little bit of Liberty here, um, I know that you are one of the people who are really keen on ensuring that, uh, that your legacy is kind of left in this industry as well, and that we have others that look like you. So how are you, like, what are you doing to kind of move that forward as well? Yeah. So, you know, that's, that's the everyday mission for me, right? I think being in this industry and not having a lot of people that look like me and not being able to find them, right? That was the other thing was like looking around and saying, okay, who could I model myself after? Who could I learn more from? Who's there to answer questions about, um, you know, my career and, um, the things that I'm facing. And, and it was tough. I can tell you that there were times when, um, I wanted to quit. I said, oh, I don't know that I want to continue down this path. Um, I'm facing some challenges I don't have any answers to. Uh, I wanted to quit, but there were people that were in my life that really helped me continue down the path, um, of learning, understanding, um, how to navigate, uh, this career path, right? Everybody's a white male. They're white males, right? And the decision makers are all white males. And, um, you know, the, my coworkers are all white males. And I don't see women in the, in this career field. And, you know, you often find yourself, you know, very lonely. So I don't want that for other people. Right. I don't want them to, if you're, if you're a unicorn, right? You, that means that you're the first, you're the one and only, then it's set. It becomes like a lonely path. If you don't kind of find people that you can trust that will mentor you, that will sponsor you, that will help you, um, you know, guide your career. And I, and I was fortunate enough to find people, especially when I was at the point where I was ready to quit. Um, so that was helpful for me. So now I really, number one, I try to have 50, 50 teams. That's important to me, right? 50% male, 50% female. Um, I try and I'm doing a decent job of bringing in as many minorities, um, you know, as I can mentoring them, um, being there for them, answering their questions. You know, I, part of what I really am focused on now is, is blogging as much as possible so that people, if you're on LinkedIn and you know, you see a post from me, hopefully it's encouraging and it's empowering people, um, to continue to stay even when the journey gets hard, right? There, you know, I think teaming up with like cybersity and, and now even ITSMF and just, there are these, um, pockets of support and I want to be a part of that and I want to make that happen. And so Octavia, you know, um, I, um, we are putting together these pockets of, of support, right? Kind of people who have been CISOs who understand the landscape, who can support others and starting to put those support groups together so that we were, we can encourage them and help them get to, uh, to become, you know, in the CISO pipeline. We want to see more female, black females, you know, minority females in the CISO pipeline. I want to see people like me and I'm going to do everything possible to make that happen. Um, and, and that's like, if you think about my job and the work that I do, which is, you know, we're always so busy, but I find time for that just because I believe that it's a necessity. Awesome. Thanks, Nicole. I think that's awesome. You know, I think that's awesome. I'm going to hand it over to Vijay. Thank you, Octavia. Nicole, it's been a delight to have you today. Uh, your journey is fantastic. Your personal origin story is amazing. Got a couple of really quick questions for you. One on the, the diversity aspect, you know, we, we hear this time and again, many, many organizations, many teams strive for it. And what, what you mentioned about that 50, 50 balance, how, how did you achieve that? Because we keep hearing the narrative about, Hey, it's a sourcing problem. It's a pipeline issue. Right. But, uh, I want to hear your journey. Well, so number one, I think, um, you gotta be somebody people want to work for. So remember people leave jobs because of bosses, right? So that happens. So, um, for me, part of my remit was to establish the right relationships with people, um, and identify people and put that pipeline together early. Right. So I always have a plethora of people I can go to and say, I've got this role, right. I've developed those pipelines. I've got this role. Um, here's the type of person I'm looking for. Can you get this out to your network? And I believe it's our responsibility to establish those networks so that, um, it's, it's, is it a pipeline issue or is it just, if you're not properly networked, you don't have, um, people kind of waiting in the wings, we've got, there are tons of qualified people that aren't getting a shot to me, um, that should, right. And I, I have generated a list of people that when I have roles, I'm going to them, I'm going to, you know, cybersity, I'm going to these pockets of support and saying, who's ready for this role. Right. And I want them to be on my slate. Right. And that, and so curating your own slates are very important. If you allow your, you know, your recruiting, recruiting organization or your talent organization to do it on their own, you'll never get there. You have to be invested in the process. Um, you have to, uh, curate and develop the right relationships in the right networks, uh, to get the right people. And you have to keep those relationships going. So when it's time and you have a role or you hear about a role, right, those networks should also be feeders. So you should be hearing about roles and, and have people that you can refer to those roles as well. That, that's a, that's a part of, I think the remit for minority, uh, CISOs, right. Is to, is to make sure that we can bring in more people into that pipeline that look like us and, um, and, and can succeed, right. Part of that is also supporting them through their journey and making sure that the role is appropriate for them and that we've set them up for success. Um, and there are many ways to do that. I actually, um, work with Charles Blarner on a, um, kind of CISO kind of aspiring CISO workshops and they're happening every month to really support the journey for these, uh, aspiring CISOs and really lay the groundwork for helping them to gain the skills necessary to become a successful CISO woman. Love it. Love it. Truly some fantastic points over there. Um, got another question, right? You, you are a 5X CISO, been in the cyberspace, uh, the CISO space since like 2010. Um, you know, when you take on a new role, right, typically it's like, Hey, do an assessment of the current plant and provide us your recommendation and lockdown strategy. How do you, how was your 60 or a hundred day plan look like? Oh, wow. Great, great question. So, um, I'm a big proponent of the book. What is the first 90 days? I remember reading that, um, after my first CISO gig and recognizing that I had done none of those things, right. None of the things in that book. And so I was like, okay, so let me, and you reflect, right. You go back and say, you know, how did that role go for me? Like what, what did I do? Right? What did I do wrong? And I had this long list. I was like, yeah, I didn't do this. Yep. I didn't do that. Oh, maybe if I had done this, that would have worked out. Right. So again, right. Not having a roadmap because there was no roadmap when you're one of the first CISOs, you kind of, you get in the role and it's kind of trial and error. And that book kind of shined a light on maybe it was to me, um, the first time I thought about having a more methodical or systematic approach to that first, you know, 180 days. And so, you know, in my, you know, in my other roles after that role, um, I had this systematic approach that I use, right. And that is, you know, I want to get to know the organization first because, you know, nine times out of 10, um, the opinion on the industry, and I've kind of, I've gone from industry to industry. So manufacturing, uh, I've been in retail as well as obviously the federal government and, um, and healthcare. So I've been in different industries and, you know, these programs that we build and create have to be kind of fit for purpose. They're, they're not all the same, right. If you're in financial services, you, you know, that there are specific requirements you have to meet. And there's a lot of compliance overhead there. You're in manufacturing, not so much, right. If you're in aerospace, not so much maybe, but you still have like the DOD requirements to comply with. So building a program is really important, but understanding that business and how they make money is, is fundamental. Establishing the right relationships up front, knowing who the decision makers are and the influences, influencers are is, is key and critical, right. You can't tell your story until you know who to tell it to and who is going to help make and drive decisions and who's going to be in your corner, right. So, um, my hundred, my hundred day plan really consists of getting to know the organization, a lot of interviews, because I want to meet everybody. I want to understand all the skeletons in the closet, the good, the bad, the ugly. Um, it's, um, really understanding for my supervisor, like what is his expectation of this role? And, um, you know, do I have everything necessary to do to perform the role? And if not, I spend that first hundred days kind of talking about, uh, that, right. The support I need, um, who's, I, I always want to go into organization, have a mentor and a sponsor, right. So I do that upfront as well. So, and I, and it's really kind of to set my support structure up front, right. That will help me to be successful moving forward. So that's kind of how I spend that first, um, hundred days. I try not to make too many decisions. I try to get to know the staff and, um, and really assess their skills during that period of time before I maybe bring in a third party firm to actually come in and do an assessment. Cause I want to understand what I'm getting myself into and, and what, what changes I need to make. So I try to start off slow, but it's really about more of the organizational first and then setting up a firm foundation for, uh, myself to be successful in the role. Very cool. I've been taking down notes, but the, the, the point about getting the mentor really on, uh, that was a nice one. I like that. Thank you. Steven, over to you, my friend. Thank you, Vijay and Nicole. Thank you again for spending your time with us. And first off, look, thank you for your services. It is deeply appreciated as a average civilian. Uh, thank you again. Uh, look, I don't want to ask anything you've answered before, like in your security current advice to aspiring C-cells and things like that. Um, and I personally do focus a lot on DEI, but you hit that a bunch today. And if I go into it, I'm gonna start railing on Texas banning DEI offices. So I'm gonna just take that WUSA moment and keep it moving. Right. So anyway, look, one of the topics that I think is pretty relevant, relevant, and that I think you have experience it is that of digital transformation. And I think it means different things to a lot of people, but more or less, I think loosely defined, I look at it as adding process to technology to make businesses or organizations more efficient. Um, and, and we see a lot of it into your earlier point with AI, we do have to embrace automation. Um, in my opinion, you know, like, you know, it's just something that we need to do, but part of embracing that automation means that you also need to embrace the expiration of certain skill sets. Right. So, and I've told my teams in the past, Hey, if you automate yourself out of a job, we will get you a better one. Right. And that's a safety net that I want in there because human nature is self-preservation. And if you, if people think they're gonna like automate themselves out of a job, then they're just not going to give you that automation. So I think for me, the question I want to ask you is, um, I mean, you may be, you know, you may not have the answer for this, but, um, looking at it through the lens of your history and what you've learned, are there ways to kind of get a good understanding of in particular cybersecurity? What skill sets do we think maybe become obsolete because of automation? So a good example is, for example, chat GPT does really great Python coding, right? So maybe that as an example of, okay, maybe I don't need to focus on coding anymore if I'm coming in as a pen tester, but that that's kind of the gist of the question. I know it was a little bit long-winded, but I want to make sure it was like really, you know, understood. So I'll leave it there. So a couple of things you mentioned and, and, you know, let me just say this, right. I'm kind of disappointed in what I'm seeing in the States, especially the state I live in Florida, um, as it relates to DE&I, right. I think, you know, something that really should kind of advance are many of our organizations is now under attack and that is like deeply disappointing to me. Um, not sure how we solve that, but you did mention it. So I wanted to bring that up. Um, you know, I think number one, let me, let me go back to something I learned, right. At Carrier, when we had a chance to kind of build out the Carrier environment, Greenfield, right. And re-imagine, um, cyber. It was such an exciting time for, for me. I worked with our chief digital officer at the time, Bobby George, and he is amazing, super amazing. And, um, you know, he had us really go through these workshops to really think through like, what, you know, what could we automate and, and why would that be valuable? Right. So when you think about a greenfield environment, and if you, if you know, many of us, we walk into a CESA world and we're kind of inheriting something versus being able to build something from scratch. And that was pretty exciting for me. And it really helped me understand how to motivate people into, uh, motive, motivating them out of their current job. Right. And helping them understand that, um, automation is important, uh, for the organization and it really helps them to do more high value work. Right. So helping them see their future is very important because to your point, people will not automate if there is not an incentive for them to do so. So part of it is how do, how do you help them to see what their future could be like and what they could potentially do? How do you help upskill them for that future? Right. And then how do you get them on board to start to solicit ideas on how to automate and you just have some really good processes for doing that? Um, you know, we have a lot of workshops, we incentivize people to do it as well. Right. Like, you know, for a person, uh, and, and I did this like, Hey, if you, you automated 10 plus processes within your environment, within a certain period of time, you know, uh, you got an additional bonus or you got some sort of incentive and that, that obviously, you know, money always motivates people to some degree. And so that was helpful, but it also having that culture of, of being tech forward and, you know, um, where, you know, fail fast, fail forward, innovate first, right. Is really important as well. So I think CISOs, if we really want people to move the needle into this space, we have to incentivize them to do so. But we also have to, you know, give them a soft landing somewhere else, right. And help them understand, uh, what the future could look like. And when you do that and you make it, um, exciting for them, you'll, you'll see people sign up and continue to sign up for additional automation. Um, the other thing is, you know, when I look at chat GPT and some of these emerging technologies and just because, you know, I was, you know, I was in the AOL days, which, you know, that dates me significantly, right. Like knowing, um, you know, what AOL is, right. And you, you ask a cyber professional what AOL is today. They're like, what if they don't even know. And which is so funny, right. That's really dating myself. Um, and the fact that I was in DC, you know, when AOL was super popular, um, and, and so you see like this morph of technology, when I look at chat GPT, I say, you know what, this really allows, um, me to focus not on things like policy, right. Who loves writing policy? No one, right. But it's a part of the job. We have to write more policy as things change. We have to update them. But what if you could use chat GPT to do that? That is a win for all of us, right? Not saying you should write your policies, you know, using chat GPT, but maybe it could be a basis for a, a policy, uh, revision, right. And help you get to that 80% and then you have your people, um, get you across the finish line, right. So there are these mundane ad hoc kind of tasks that your team members hate doing. And if you can figure out what those are and leverage these new technologies to take that off their plate, man, you, you'd be surprised how, how much happier they are. Right. Then, cause don't get me wrong. I mean, there are things, there are, um, like activities within our, um, within our jobs that are like dogs, right? Like we're like, oh, I gotta go do that again. And of course, you know, um, we, it's just a part of the job and as executives, we, we know how to get past that, but it's sometimes hard for our teams. And so putting together that bucket list of items that you can tackle over, you know, a period of years, right. Time, um, is important. And when your people see the value of that, they, they, um, they jump in very quickly, trust me. And so that's kind of, that's my response to it. I don't have an answer for everything, but I do, I do think that I'm sure we can all find ways in which we can use these new technologies to really advance our organization. Thank you. The response is definitely appreciated. Look, as someone who's been on since the ConfuServe days, I feel you want me to, uh, dating yourself. Yeah. Um, I had mine spring. So, which was like, that's really, yeah. Okay. All right. I got you. Um, yeah, no, and I think you hit a good point here. Cause I think what is sometimes missed in the whole chat GPT hustle is that it's not really innovating per se, right? Like, so when you say use it to make policy, cause this is something that we should have been doing and have known to do for a while now, but that does free up the mind share for, for the human element to say, let me get creative with it. Right. Um, so that's a good takeaway for me. So thank you again for that. And I will hand it off to Thomas now. Sounds good. Hey, Octavia, there's some old people on this panel. What is AOL again? And I have no idea. You know what? I can't even laugh that, that hard. Cause I know what all that is, but I wasn't wrong. So there you go. Well, look, I mean, there are some real good things about chat GPT. Like for example, Nicole, why did the math book look sad? Oh my God, please not. What? Why did the math book look sad? Because it had too many problems. Chad, Chad GPT is great for dad jokes. I love it. I love it. Oh my gosh. Okay. We need to put a block on his proxy, man. So look, um, it's been a really good conversation so far. We've got a, we have close to close a little bit more than 30 minutes to go. Uh, so if you are in the audience and you do want to join the conversation or have a question that's burning on your mind and you want to get asked, uh, that you want to ask the co, uh, raise your hand and I will bring you up on the stage and you can ask your question live. Um, I do see someone raising the hand. Hey, Alicia. We'll give Alicia a minute to join us. Hey, Alicia. Alicia Good evening. How are you? Anything you want? I am good. Thank you for allowing me to come on and ask a few questions. So Ms. Ford, again, thank you for your service and, um, thank you everyone on the panel for, um, always having these awesome, um, discussions with guests. Ms. Ford, I have a couple of questions for you regarding your current position. Um, what challenges did you, um, overcome when, trying to work, you know, update or shape the workforce that you're currently overseeing? That's my first question. Okay. Ask it one more time. That was, okay, so what challenges? What, what challenges did you overcome when trying to, uh, reshape the workforce, uh, currently at your current job? Okay, so, um, that's a good question. I'm still doing that. Um, I, I, I figured you were probably still working on, on that as well. Yeah. So, um, anytime you go into an existing organization, you know, Rockwell's been around for a hundred plus years, um, you, you have like the, you have people that have been there for a long time. And I think Rockwell is, is in this important inflection point where they have, they've recruited a lot of new people and then they have people who have been there for 20, 30 years. Like it's a badge of honor to be a part of an organization, um, like that for a number of years. And so, and I certainly, I, I respect people who have spent their whole careers in one place. Um, but I also recognize that, you know, you bring in new people to bring new perspectives. And so how do you do that, um, and still respect the past, right? And, and, and just the legacy of Rockwell. And so that there's a fine balance as it relates to that. And so I, I, I manage that and I'm kind of on the cusp of managing that balance every day, right? How do we preserve the past, uh, but also move forward in the future and, and help people kind of understand how to, to move in this new environment, right? Of change. And so that's really what I'm doing today is, is helping them see a new vision of, of the cyber program. And, and really there's a lot of amazing, talented people that have started at Rockwell over the last like two to three years that are a part of the same journey with me of changing, um, the face of Rockwell and, and helping advance, uh, the mission and the objectives of the organization. So I, I, I'm very careful about who I bring in, how I bring them in and what we, you know, how we kind of preface the Rockwell mission and what we really need. So there are people who are, and I, and I always say this, they're builders and maintainers, right? So builders are, are people who are a lot of times change agents. They know how to come in and know how to assess a, um, an organization and, and the environment and, and help drive change in the right way, right? By changing culture. And then there are maintainers who that's just not their thing, right? So at this point in time, you know, I'm bringing in a lot of builders who have the skill set and expertise to further advance our mission, recognizing that, you know, we have, um, we have a lot of legacy that we still need to preserve, right? Um, right. And, and, and, and the most professional way move forward. Awesome. Well, thank you for that answer. And that definitely helps, uh, paint a picture of how you, um, embark on taking those steps. But last question I have for you, um, in, in hearing all that you said tonight and, and the different, um, uh, positions that you've held in background, what would you tell a professional, some cybersecurity professionals such as myself on how to transition from, uh, government to industry, uh, in regards to, uh, I'm working now with, uh, different customers within, uh, the government, but looking to go into industry, what, um, what tips are, uh, that you would probably provide, um, someone that's looking to expand their skillset, uh, within industry with the current skillset of cybersecurity, um, and, and be one of those change makers. Yes. A great question. Um, you know, I had to do that transition, um, um, from the federal government or from the military into the private sector and for a lot of people, it can be a little daunting, but I, I think it's, it's really not. Right. So, um, um, when, if you're thinking about the transition, I think number one, expand your network outside of government, outside of government contracting, outside of, uh, the military, you've got to do that because it's really important that you meet people, um, and you get their perspective of what it means to be in the private sector. Right. And, and there are different industries. So you got to pick a industry or two that you're interested in. And a lot of times it's really important to have informational meetings to understand more about, uh, that industry, um, how things work in that industry, because, you know, the government's pretty prescriptive around cybersecurity and you've got a mandate, right? You've got a mandate and, you know, largely people have to follow that mandate. Whereas like in manufacturing, there are no regular regulatory requirements. Now there are, you know, we're starting to get them, but you know, there were no regular regulatory requirements, um, that we have to follow, right? Everything's a nice to have, right? So how do you move the needle in cybersecurity? Because people believe that you're a cost center, right? So you cost money, um, to, um, really get your programs funded, um, to the right level and to advance your program. So some of that takes deciding on your industries, uh, finding a few target companies that you like, finding the right people in those companies to network with and learn a little bit more about the organization, understanding the lingo that they use, because many organizations have different acronyms and lingo that you have to learn. And then I think it's really important that you have a coach, right? I had a coach. Um, I, I still have the same coach, um, from where I transitioned and, you know, she helped me transition my resume. She helped me transition my LinkedIn so that instead of, uh, of, you know, talking in a language that was more government focused, I was actually talking in a language that the private sector could understand in specific industries that I was targeting. So being very intentional about that is going to be important. Having the right, um, relationships or building the right networks so that you can, um, get the information you need to be successful, uh, when you do land an interview is very important. I, and I can just tell you like most recently I interviewed a young lady who is in the federal government and, um, you know, she, she did really well in the interview, but it was really hard for her to translate her experiences in the government to what was, what would be required for the, the role, um, you know, in the private sector. And so that, you know, I gave her feedback later to say, listen, here's some things you're going to need to do to make sure that you can fully transition appropriately. And one of them is to get a mentor, get a private sector mentor that can support you and help you, you know, translate your experiences into direct, uh, direct, you know, direct correlation of experiences that would impact you, or at least speak to your, uh, level of expertise in cybersecurity and how that translates to the private sector. Oh my gosh. Thank you, Nicole, because being at MITRE for 20 years, probably going on a little bit further, it's definitely a challenge to explain to employers or potential employers, what I've done other than providing my story. But what exactly have I done in in the 20 years that I've been there and the impact of, of all that I've done within cybersecurity? It, it's definitely, um, challenging if one, like you said, understanding the organization and, and how they, um, articulate their business and, and understanding, you know, what exactly are they listening for in a potential candidate? I appreciate that insight because it is important moving forward with any career, I believe to, um, do a little research before, um, applying, but also like you said, understanding, um, how to articulate in a manner that someone can clearly see you, uh, clearly understand your skillset and see where you fit. So thank you so much for answering my questions on this evening. And Tomas, thank you so much again for allowing me to come onto the panel to be able to ask a couple of questions. Now, thanks for, thank you for joining us Alicia. And thanks for contributing to the conversation. Uh, if anybody else is in the audience, you want to raise your hand and, and, uh, ask a question, I will bring you up. I'll say, just feel free to raise your hand and we will do so. We've got about 26 minutes left with, uh, with Nicole. So let's, uh, let's keep her on her toes. Nicole, you want to hear another dad joke or should we go to another question? Oh gosh. Yeah. Go on. Go on. You want another dad joke? All right. Hang on. Hang on. Let me, uh, let me go to trusty chat. That's for the record. That was her being nice. And that's me reading emotional cues. I can't see someone. All right. All right. Here we go. Why don't scientists trust atoms anymore? Why don't scientists trust atoms anymore? Because they, because they make up everything and can't be trusted with their chemistry. Okay. So we need to have a conversation about this whole situation. The first parts always make sense, but the second part of the joke never makes sense. It's AI. It's hallucinated. It's making up stuff. It never makes sense. It's AI. What do I, what I can't. Bad jokes are putting it to sleep. Now we're going back to the old sci-fi writing, electric sheep. All right, Steven, over to you. What do you want to ask Nicole? All right. Yeah. You know, you let me go. I'm going to ask questions. So, all right, Nicole. So look, one of the goals of these sessions is general awareness of what we do. And in my opinion, security is another function of business. And at the end of the day, I think what we do is really important, but it ultimately boils down to risk management. And so on that note, you know, how we interact with our boards is pretty important, especially as security is discussed more and more in the board groups. So what guidance could you provide for those of us here live and those who will be listening later on to the recordings on what they should be doing with their dealings with either the board that they have now or boards that they will eventually have to interact with as they continue to ascend the rights and security? Yeah, I love it. So I am a big proponent of meeting with board members, you know, individually. There's always going to be a person on the board that kind of represents IT, right? Now they are, you know, they have a cyber person on the board too, which is great. And so getting to know them, understanding their background, making sure that you're spending time with them is so important. And I say that because you make an assumption, you go to the board, some people go to the board quarterly, some people go to the board once a year, some people go to the board twice a year, it just depends, right? But the relationship you have with the board members to help them understand your plan, your strategy, they're your biggest advocates, the biggest advocate that you have. And, you know, kind of giving a story like, you know, our board, Rockwell has a fantastic board. And, you know, we think Rockwell makes it a point for the board to kind of interact with employees and kind of understand like our challenges and, you know, how they can be helpful. And so there's a lot of great interaction. I recommend that. And again, there's some companies that don't. So depending on your company and when you ask, and I always ask in an interview, right? Like, you know, tell me a little bit about the board. Tell me the board makeup. Help me understand who has the experience in cyber or IT who can help be a support structure for me. And at Rockwell, I was, I, during my interview process, I actually interviewed with two board members, which was amazing for me because that set the stage for a great relationship moving forward. You don't realize how critical it is until you are in a situation where you're trying to move the needle around funding or specific initiatives or, you know, maybe there's a risk that you bring up that you really want the board and your executive leadership team to understand. And sometimes having that advocate really helps, you know, bring it home and provides the focus necessary for you to advance your strategy. So that's important to me. I am very particular about the organizations I go to and making sure that that interaction exists because it's, it's quite necessary. And I learned that early in my career, right? That, you know, I remember the first, I took a company public and it was my first board meeting, right? And I, and I had to go and present to the board my first time. I was so super nervous. And they asked a lot of questions. Of course, they're always going to ask you personal questions about like, Hey, you know, I got this phishing email. Can you, can you help me understand how I can protect myself? Right. But then, you know, there were a lot of really good questions. And I think that first few interactions, I was really nervous, but I realized that, you know, that they can influence the direction of the organization in the most positive or negative ways, but, you know, mainly positive. And so how do you use that to your advantage as you are shaping a company's cybersecurity program? So you just made me chuckle on that one because Tomas and I are part of a, I'm in the Black Boardroom Initiative. And one of the things we heard today was that the board can sometimes be considered like grandparents who just, you know, come in and ask you random questions at any given time. And, you know, we got a lot of family members that swear we're like texting for. So those personal questions are interesting, but I think you highlighted something super key too. I know you're not saying that, but that Rockwell had board members actually interview their CISO, I think speaks a lot to the awareness and seriousness that they take security. So I think that is something that we should highlight to folks that if, look, if you don't see a board member and you're coming in at a pretty high CISO level, I think it's a, it's a, it's not a crazy thing to ask our board members going to be part of your interview panel. So I definitely appreciate that. Thank you. And I will hand it back to Tomas. Fantastic. Well, I would say the one caveat to that is I have 96 board members. I'm glad they didn't, they weren't part of my interview process. Uh, cause that would be a very challenging interview process. Um, 32 clubs, three representatives per club makes up my board, which is how we get to the 96. But anyways, not about me, all about you, Nicole. Great tips, great advice. Uh, Jamal, Nicole, thanks for joining the conversation. Anything you want to ask Nicole? Hi, good evening, everyone. Good evening. Um, hi, Nicole. Um, my question I have for you is, what are the biggest challenging, challenges, sorry, facing young cyber security professionals in your opinion? I'm sorry, can you say that one more time? Do you say young cyber security professionals? Oh, wow. Um, yeah. Okay. Uh, so I think... Jamal, remember she mentioned AOL. Yeah, so when, um, you didn't say like... Say young professionals. Yeah, he didn't say like cyber security professionals, when you say young, so I had to kind of... If you would like to... Yeah. Okay. So I had to change up my answer a little bit. So I think number one, um, having the confidence to move past, um, the headwinds, because there will be headwinds, um, in this role, right? And, and that to me, the challenge is, is that when you look at... What's crazy was I was going down the, um, I was, you know, driving down 95, and I see this billboard and the billboard is saying, hey, you know, go get this cyber security degree and, you know, how you'll make all this money. And I kind of laughed for a minute because I said, man, but you don't tell, what you don't tell them is that that degree gets you in the door, but that your ability to navigate an organization keeps you in the role, right? So it's very important to understand that, you know, you still need to develop the right business acumen. You still need to develop your soft skills in order to be successful in the role. It's not just enough to have the technical skills, right? That's what you learn in school. You learn many of the basics, but I mean, this, this field is going to require that you spend a lot of time continuing to learn, right? You got to be a continuous learner. You have to love learning, right? Because every day is a new day and a new challenge, and there may be a new exploit or vulnerability that you don't understand that you have to get smart on, um, in order to make the right decisions. So if that's not you, if you're looking to do the same thing every day, then maybe cyber is not for you. But if you're willing to, you know, there's still blood, sweat, and equity needed in order to move this, move forward and advance your career. And I think that there's some misconception about that, right? Like, so I I've talked to a few CISOs where, you know, they brought in, um, you know, young leaders and they've come in from school and in two years, they want to get promoted. That's their focus. Like I want to get promoted. Instead of really kind of understanding that the journey promotion comes, right? And I think you always ask for what you want, right? You always do that. You always let people know where you want to go, but make sure you're doing the work. The work is important. The work on yourself, your own development, your continuous learning, all the things that you need to do to be relevant in, in the, in the field is necessary. So, you know, those things are still necessary in order to, to move the needle. And I think there's not a, there's not this whole get rich quick kind of thing that I've seen out there and what I see even being advertised, which I think is a little misleading. Okay. Thank you, Nicole. And to follow up on my final question, what do you believe is perpetuating this drive for cybersecurity in terms of the whole portrayal of, you know, get a lot of money going into cybersecurity. So we should get a lot of people doing it. Just like when you saw the billboard and you chuckled, who you, who you think is a government is private sector, what do you believe is driving this, this agenda? Well, you know, education is, is a business too, right? So when you see the trends, of course, everybody's jumping on the bandwagon. I'm not mad about it. I don't, you know, I want everybody to succeed, but I want, you know, I want realistic expectations as well about what it takes to be successful. Again, you know, as a CISO, I want to, I want to make it easier for the next person to become a CISO. Right. So we create these roadmaps, um, to really help people navigate, but you know, it's not, it's, it's not an overnight thing. Like it, I remember saying, I wanted to kind of, you know, you always hear people say, Hey, I want to be a CEO by the time I'm 30. Right. But what you don't realize is that being a CEO before your time may impact you in a negative way. Right. So are you wise enough? Do you have the experience and expertise? Have you, you know, learn certain lessons? All that's super important. Right. And, and so promoting people before their time is, is, can hurt them if, if you're not careful. So as leaders, we need to know, we need to really pay attention to timing around things like that and making sure that we're helping, giving real feedback to people about what they need to do to progress and change, be their advocate, right? Cause it's our job. Um, but, but give them a realistic picture of what it means to be in the, in the field. Thank you very much. Thanks, Jamal. Thanks for joining the conversation this evening. Um, Katie over to you. Thank you. Um, Hey, thanks again, Nicole, for spending so much time with us tonight. I thoroughly enjoy every minute I get to spend with you and would just even echo, you know, some of the things that you said earlier about, you know, the time that you take with people. Um, you know, you spent three hours with me in a United club once just, you know, walking me through how to present to my board. And I think when I was able to nail that board presentation, I have you to thank. And so I just kind of wanted to shout you out for, um, if this is, this is not just words, you really do these things and, and it's greatly appreciated in the community. Um, wanted to double click on what you just said as well, because I, I think what you said was really important about, you know, the continual learning, um, and the roadmaps for, um, you know, people who are aspiring to move into, you know, uh, either, you know, high level, uh, cybersecurity, uh, positions in global organizations, or, you know, to be global CISOs themselves. Um, you talked a little bit about certifications. Um, you said roadmap kind of at a high level, just kind of curious in terms of the lessons that you, you know, you feel that people still may need to learn, um, and whether that you think the path is more of the certification piece or is it soft skills or where do you think somebody should really double down if they're, um, you know, working diligently toward that goal? Yeah. Um, that's a really good question. Soft skills are so important. They're so important. I think, um, you know, we can rely on our technical expertise to get us to a certain level, but then our soft skills have to kick in. Um, I think it's incumbent upon CISOs or potential CISOs to really, um, understand and like that business acumen is real and we always talk about it, but, um, I can tell you, like, I had some critical conversations this week and, um, I had to really, really, you know, use the skills that I've learned over time, um, to further progress a really critical decision that the organization needed to make. And, um, those skills came in handy. One of them is being able to socialize information before you get to a critical conversation or presentation, right? Now we take it for granted that everybody in the room is going to shake their head and agree with us. And that's not always the case, right? I'm sure many of you guys have had those situations where you should have socialized something a little bit more. And had you done that, you probably would have gotten a different outcome. Um, but it's so important to have learned those lessons, right? And, and to listen to other CISOs who tell you about those lessons around how you socialize information. How do you, how do you influence, um, decisions? Um, how do you prepare, uh, for that critical presentation, right? Anytime we're going to ask for money or a change in direction or, um, you know, some sort of action that will, um, that is different than the norm, you have to have the skills necessary to do it. And you have to have people in the room that are going to shake their head and nod with you when the time is right. And, and that's like good old fashioned, like, um, winning, there's a book called, is it winning friends and influencing people or something like that stuff? How to make friends and influence people. Yeah, that stuff is real. Like that's real talk. Um, and you realize that the higher you go up, that is, it's never about like those certifications. Like, I don't, I don't even think I asked people what certifications they have anymore. Um, because it just, again, you know, I think when we're doing kind of our initial review of somebody, we already know that, right. But I've never asked them, Hey, do you have the certification? Because I don't think it really speaks to who the person is and their ability to deliver, um, or perform in the role a lot of times. So I'm looking for their, uh, the way that they think, um, their critical thinking skills and, um, you know, how they, how they show up, right. That, that is so critical to me, um, and a way in which I can really determine if this person will be successful with the organization. So I asked them a lot of, um, questions like scenario based questions, because I want to understand how they're going to operate. And that's really helped me, um, to, to bring in the right people. But I, I'll, I'll certainly say, like I said, I think it's important that you develop those skills early. Um, and over time you hone those skills. And like I said, I've seen, um, I've seen where there have been CISOs have been successful because they have them and others who have not, um, because they didn't have them or they didn't recognize or see their blind spot and get, uh, proper, uh, support and guidance on how to proceed. Yeah, I appreciate that. Yeah, certainly. I think anyone on the panel or anyone who is, um, you know, spends the time that we do on these, uh, origin stories, we appreciate that kind of feedback because, um, we're constantly evolving to your point, you know, and, and, uh, uh, hearing what our peers are doing and the people we look up to in the industry are doing in this area is, uh, is super helpful. So again, thank you for, uh, for doubling down and clicking in on that, uh, that question. I think Vijay had another question. Uh, Vijay, over to you. Thank you, Carrie. Nicole, what's your favorite metric when you present to boards or your executives? That's a good question. Wow. Um, do you, just one metric? I wanted it crazy. You think you could go over to the field. Oh, geez. Okay. Um, so metrics are really tough, right? Because, you know, I've had, I, I've been a part of various companies, right? Whereas for metrics are more important than others. So, um, let me think, there are like three metrics, four, excuse me, four metrics that I believe are important to me today. And this is really metrics that we speak to, I believe the performance of my organization, right? So, um, I'll bring up like one or two. So, um, you know, the kind of our, uh, our, you know, the metric around being able to detect threats and our turnaround time for that. So mean time to respond, mean time to detect are very important to me, right? Because really in this day and age, um, you know, it's not, if it's when, right, we're all gonna face some sort of security breach, but our ability to detect it, um, and respond is pretty important to me. So detection and response, I consider that the bread and butter, um, for us. And let me think, those two are really critical to me. So I always, I'm always reporting on those, right? Because we, we have to stand ready, um, in the event of, um, on a cyber attack. Um, you know, we also, sometimes I will provide, um, kind of, I do have a couple of vulnerability management metrics that I like, um, because I want, um, people to understand like how many, I always like to provide like a, here's how many zero days we have. Here's how much time it takes for us to patch systems because our cyber hygiene is important, right? If we're not doing that, right, then, then we're not doing some of the basic foundational work. And really to me, you know, when I think about what keeps us off of the, you know, New York post or the Washington post, those basics are really important, right? Because, you know, it's always some vulnerability that's been in your organization for like a hundred years that a threat actor exploits. And all of a sudden, you know, you're sitting on the Washington post because we didn't pay attention to that. Indeed. Indeed. You got anything, uh, pertaining, uh, people? about dating people? Well, you know, the jury's out to me on, you know, we always have these fishing metrics, right? I'm not a fan of the fishing metrics. I know it's clip rates and I'll do it. Don't get me wrong. I'll do it. In general, the reality is that it doesn't really help as much as it should, right? But when you think about it, it only takes one person to click on the fish, right? So if your click rate's low, it can still happen, right? So it's not an indicator that you're not going to have a group. So that's always challenging for me when it comes to people. We track metrics around how many people have been trained, you know, and what our click rate is and, you know, how many people report fishing attempts, how many people spot a fish, stuff like that. But I know that the threat actor has a million times to come at us with some sort of attack. We have one time to get it wrong. And we're sitting somewhere on that Washington Post. Love it. Love it. Hey, I've been having a ton of fun tonight. Tomas, I am conscious of the time, so I'm going to hand it over to you. Yes, sir. Is that for another dad joke? Oh. Oh, no. That was not what he said. He said. I'm passing it back to you. You know what? I would rather you make up your own. I think you need to fire ChatGPT. All right. Well, there's an opportunity there for a comedian. Actually, not an opportunity. There is a comment there around comedians. They're not going to lose their job because of ChatGPT. So that's all I have to say on that. Look, Nicole, it's been a really great conversation this evening. I again, I sincerely appreciate you taking the time out of your busy schedule to spend an hour and a half with us talking us through your journey and really sharing some some good, you know, as we like to call it, gems. Right. And good takeaways for us, not only as panelists, but also folks in the audience. So I will go around the room before we sort of conclude. And I just say a few final words. So we will be back again next month. So please tune in next month. I will post the date and the time and our guests in a few weeks. So please tune in for our session next month. Co-hosts, any final words for Nicole? Before I get to the last question, I mean. This is Katie. Yeah. Just thanks again, Nicole, for being here and spending so much time with us. I'm leaving with four pages of notes. Just want to thank you again. I know how busy you are and just really appreciate you spending time with us. Thank you. Likewise, Nicole. It's been an absolute delight. Learned a ton. Thank you so much. Same here. Awesome. I'm looking forward to what we're going to do together. We're about to, you're about to see a lot of big things for the rest of you all this thing. But you think Nicole is doing big things now. We're about to really blow up. So thank you for being here and just giving us a taste. Thank you. Thank you. Hey, listen, Tomas, I didn't like the jokes. They were a little corny, but I loved the conversation. You guys were pretty awesome. It was definitely a pleasure. Nicole, don't worry. The jokes were meant to be corny, so they served their purpose. Sorry that you didn't like them though. I do have one last question that I will ask you and I don't think you've covered this. You covered a little bit maybe, but this is more, this is a reflective piece. So you've, you've, you work, you're obviously still on your journey, but if you have one piece of advice for the younger Nicole, what would it be and why? Oh, wow. Good one. Take more risk and change and take more risks and worry less. Take more risk and worry less. Look, I like it. I like it. So Nicole, again, on behalf of the team here, thank you for taking the time. As we mentioned, thank you for your service and thank you for all the words of wisdom. I'll leave you with the final words and we'll, we'll wrap. Thank you. Thank you so much. You guys were awesome. You know, it's always nice to be in the presence of, of great leaders. So, and I consider each one of you guys a great leader. So thank you again for having me and look forward to you guys inviting me back one day. Absolutely. All right, everybody have a good rest of your week and we will chat with you in a few weeks. Cheers. Cheers. Bye, everybody. Cheers. Bye. Thank you.